Team Russia for 2014/2015 Season

sisinka said:

While Hawayek & Baker can easily challenge all top US teams. Chock & Bates suffer from Bates weak technique and one kind of style - romantic style. Shibutanis don't have good enought programs and their technique is not strong also, plus they are not fast. Hubbell & Donohue have the best edges from US couples, but judges doesn't look to love them plus Madison's injury plus the couple is not really fast as well. So Hawayek & Baker have real chance to be in top 3 and come to World Champs.

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I agree that the US judges have tended to protect C/B and the Shibutanis against H/D. But I'd say that international judges scores reflect that H/D is very well liked. The fact remains that Madison's recovery and its effects on training will play a huge part in how much they succeed this year.

I'm really hoping Hawayek/Baker move up and hopefully go to Worlds this season - I saw them for the first time this season when I was watching the JGPF FD, and was extremely impressed, especially considering the fact that they were juniors. I thought the Amelie FD was just lovely, beautifully understated, interesting, different, and extremely enjoyable to watch. I think they're very talented and I hope they go far together!

As for the Russians, I'll be curious to see if the European/World team ends up being B/S, M/K, and S/B, or if one (or both) of I/Z and S/K can break into the top 3 at Nationals. RN will certainly be interesting and hopefully entertaining, if nothing else

sisinka said:

While Hawayek & Baker can easily challenge all top US teams. Chock & Bates suffer from Bates weak technique and one kind of style - romantic style. Shibutanis don't have good enought programs and their technique is not strong also, plus they are not fast. Hubbell & Donohue have the best edges from US couples, but judges doesn't look to love them plus Madison's injury plus the couple is not really fast as well. So Hawayek & Baker have real chance to be in top 3 and come to World Champs.

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I'm not really sure about this: we're still talking about couples coached by Zoueva and Shpilband and, even if I really like H/B and LOVED their Amelie FD , I don't really think they can challenge C/B or the Shibs or H/D... 4th place is absolutely within their reach, though! :yes:
On the Russian side, this could definitely be the right year for S/B and M/K to establish themselves as real Senior couples!

I think HB have good chances in siniors. I think the Shibs stuck. I don't see an improvement since 2011. I think that it's Marina's fault, ofcourse she was busy with VM and DW, but she haven't found a style for the Shibs and their tech has suffered after Igor left. And this year i'm not sure that they will be her number one pair.

Anastasi14 said:

I think HB have good chances in siniors. I think the Shibs stuck. I don't see an improvement since 2011. I think that it's Marina's fault, ofcourse she was busy with VM and DW, but she haven't found a style for the Shibs and their tech has suffered after Igor left. And this year i'm not shure that they will be her number one pair.

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I agree with you. They did not build on the bronze medal at Worlds, and have been passed by C/B since then. If Madison hadn't had her injury, maybe they wouldn't have even made the Olympic team - both H/D & the Shibs were getting comparable scores at the start of the season. Marina has made it quite clear that her focus is her new teams. Part of me feels a bit sorry for the Shibs for being overlooked by their coach again, but equally, it's been apparent for years that she doesn't know who to present them & that they aren't her main focus - at some point you have to question why on earth the Shibs haven't made a coaching change yet.

uhh said:

I agree with you. They did not build on the bronze medal at Worlds, and have been passed by C/B since then. If Madison hadn't had her injury, maybe they wouldn't have even made the Olympic team - both H/D & the Shibs were getting comparable scores at the start of the season. Marina has made it quite clear that her focus is her new teams. Part of me feels a bit sorry for the Shibs for being overlooked by their coach again, but equally, it's been apparent for years that she doesn't know who to present them & that they aren't her main focus - at some point you have to question why on earth the Shibs haven't made a coaching change yet.

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I thought Shibs should have stayed with Igor. I understand why they stayed with Marina, it was comfortable. But if you want to achive something more you need to forget about comfort. Also Marina's dances weren't the best, if it was one of the reasons to stay with her. The Memories of geisha were good, but even Jackson program hadn't shined how it could. So, i think in terms of choreography they wouldn't have lost anything if they had stayed with Igor, but probably their tech would be better.

As for H/D i really liked them this season! Especially the connection between them, how he presents here, how they look at each other - it makes something special about their skating. Their programs were modern and interesting and i'm really looking forward to see what they have prepared for the next season.

uhh said:

I agree with you. They did not build on the bronze medal at Worlds, and have been passed by C/B since then. If Madison hadn't had her injury, maybe they wouldn't have even made the Olympic team - both H/D & the Shibs were getting comparable scores at the start of the season. Marina has made it quite clear that her focus is her new teams. Part of me feels a bit sorry for the Shibs for being overlooked by their coach again, but equally, it's been apparent for years that she doesn't know who to present them & that they aren't her main focus - at some point you have to question why on earth the Shibs haven't made a coaching change yet.

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I think the Shibs got a raw deal from SEVERAL quarters. The ice dance world in general can't seem to forgive them for the temerity of daring to win the bronze medal their first year on seniors (even though, let's face it, they won that bronze by default). Zoueva doesn't seem to know what to do with them--she has either recycled choreography (their FD the year after they won the bronze, the Geisha FD), coopted music from a more famous team (the Duchenays' Missing piece), or mismatched their style with odd musical choices (the MJ FD--though I hope they learn as much from it as Marlie did from their stylistic mismatch--the tango FD). People on this board have tagged them as "over the hill"--even though Maia is still not old enough to legally drink anywhere in her home country! Last year saw them on an upswing. They seem to have regained momentum after several down years. But they absolutely would benefit from working with a different choreographer, if not an entirely new coaching team.

I'm now a HUGE fan of Hawayek and Baker. It's amazing to think of what they've accomplished already, with only two years experience as a team. And the new rule changes are going to benefit them, perhaps more than most teams. His footwork and edge quality is outstanding, and he has a real ease as a performer. She's not quite at his level yet, but give her--and them--time. Her improvement last year was exponential, and again, that was only the second year they've been together. I think eventually they will be one of the top three American ID teams this quad, quite possibly as early as this year. Sorry sisinka, but I couldn't disagree with your evaluation of the American dance teams more. I loved H/D's programs last year, but I think you overrate them and underrate all the other American teams.

And I cannot disagree more about M/K. I don't know what it is about them but after watching them once my immediate reaction could only be characterized as "Irrational dislike"--Monko in particular. But it's early days, so maybe my opinion will change. I couldn't stand Carolina Kostner when she started out, and she turned out to be one of my favorite female-solo skaters.

FSGMT said:

I'm not really sure about this: we're still talking about couples coached by Zoueva and Shpilband and, even if I really like H/B and LOVED their Amelie FD , I don't really think they can challenge C/B or the Shibs or H/D... 4th place is absolutely within their reach, though! :yes:

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I think you undersell H/B saying 4th place is in their reach. I don't see any scenario in which they're lower than 4th behind Aldrdige/Eaton or Cannuscio/McManus and the other lower ranking teams from 2014 unless one of those senior teams shows up vastly improved.

I don't think they'll challenge Chock and Bates next season. USFS seems to be behind them. Igor is behind them. They improve every season, were fabulous in Boston, solid at the Olympics and ended up top 5 in the World due to some luck in who showed up in Japan. USFS is going to be looking to position them to sneak in for bronze at Worlds. But eventually I think, if D/W do retire, it will be between C/B and H/B for the spot of US#1 dance team.

I won't be surprised if they eclipse Hubbell and Donohue this season. They're a beautiful team with fabulous chemistry and good programs. However, I found them to be the rare team who I enjoy more on a screen than live. Seeing them in Boston, it was just obvious that their basic skating skills weren't as strong. They were slower and scratchier than the top 3 teams. Some of that may have been her injury- I guess we'll see this season. But I got to Boston hoping they would make the team and left thinking the right 3 teams had made it. Personal opinion of course. They're a fun, watchable team but I don't see them standing on a World podium the way I do with C/B or H/B.

Its harder to say if H/B could bump off the Shibs. All being objective I think they're talented enough. USFS seemed to be dumping the Shibs a bit two seasons ago but that seemed to be solely in favor of Chock and Bates. I don't think they'll ever challenge C/B again but I'm not also sure the judges (or Marina who no longer has D/W in the race) will let them slide behind other teams next season. It may come down to how H/B deliver on the GP and who is cleaner. Or it may be predetermined that the shibs are number one based on politics.

I feel bad that this debate has hijacked the Team Russia thread. Maybe its time to start a US dance thread?

FSGMT said:

I'm not really sure about this: we're still talking about couples coached by Zoueva and Shpilband and, even if I really like H/B and LOVED their Amelie FD , I don't really think they can challenge C/B or the Shibs or H/D... 4th place is absolutely within their reach, though! :yes:
On the Russian side, this could definitely be the right year for S/B and M/K to establish themselves as real Senior couples!

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Higher points for coach’s reputation is well-known thing. But names of coaches on the top are changing every decade. It was Dubova, Tchaikovskaya, Tarasova, Linichuk, now Zueva…other coaches had few great seasons and then they almost stayed without any students…
Once a champions leave competive skating than top coach needs another winning couple to prove that he/she is still on the top. Sphilband has World and European champions now, so it looks like he is one step in front of others, but his two best top couples suffer from lower technique – C&L don’t have good edges and speed, Evan Bates doesn’t have good edges plus poor body posture and work of free leg. This doesn’t support the image of Sphilband like great technician, his students should improve dramatically in technique to keep his reputation on high note.

Zueva’s top couples – her number 1 team S&K..nobody knows what to expect. Her number 2 team – S&S are a couple with not great technique, not appreaciated programs, they didn’t make big improvement since they appeared like fresh new couple in 2010/11 season. If Zueva took Hubbell & Donohue – she got the couple with good quality of edges thanks to Krylova, but they lack the speed and their not qualifying for the Olympics gives them lower position comparing to Shibs. So nothing is sure either for Zueva – getting back to the top will be hard work or even might not repeat in next four years.

Krylova & Camerlengo are on rise right now. Their reputation is the lowest so far, but…they became a well-known choreographers. This coaching team has couples whose technique improved during time they worked with them. The coaching team has Silver World medalists and Gold Junior World Medalists right now. Coming to this post Olympic season they have an advantage in person of Pasqualle who I suppose has a sense for Spanish music…and Anjelica herself was a great dancer and Spanish dances suited her perfectly. So at least their senior aged and mature skaters have a great chance to understand what is Spanish music about and how it should be executed.

I still persist on an opinion that the best technical couples last season were V&M, B&S, I&K and S&Z. But comparing Zueva x Sphilband x Krylova & Camerlengo’s teams in technique – K&C teams are better than the rest (I can’t speak about S&K without seeing their competive programs), comparing couples in presentation and dance qualities – I also W&P and C&L above the rest of the teams coached by Zueva, Sphilband and Krylova.

WeakAnkles said:

Sorry sisinka, but I couldn't disagree with your evaluation of the American dance teams more. I loved H/D's programs last year, but I think you overrate them and underrate all the other American teams.

And I cannot disagree more about M/K. I don't know what it is about them but after watching them once my immediate reaction could only be characterized as "Irrational dislike"--Monko in particular. But it's early days, so maybe my opinion will change. I couldn't stand Carolina Kostner when she started out, and she turned out to be one of my favorite female-solo skaters.

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It is OK, we are all free to have our own opinions. My overrating and underrating US couples… Even with new judging rules a description of this cathegory looks to be quite strict – deep edges, beautiful gliding, expression to different sort of music, musicality, all things described in components etc. While some people believe that Ice Dance is about doing all required elements clean and thanks to it even components will rise – I know it happens, but I don’t agree, this is like giving Timothy Goebel 10 for Interpretation and Skating Skills because he landed three quads in a free skate. As well as I don’t agree that quads define skater like an artist, I think that acrobatic lifts and spin don’t define great dancer. And new judging rules agrees with me - Ice Dance has great expression and dance quality described in rules!

US Dance teams – C&B, S&S, H&D and H&B – even not one team meets all requirements which would make a great dancers from them right now.
Skating skills are good for H&D and H&B, while Shibs are in trouble and Bates is not good technician at all.
Speed goes to C&B and maybe H&B, while S&S are rather slower team and H&D are very slow team.
Good presentation even in time when music doesn’t help much goes to H&D, while H&B are juniorish and in their Amelie FD I found their presentation quite pale in some parts – but they are very young. Shibs are not very expressive. Chock & Bates uses big gestures and hoops to music beats which is effective, yes. While at least this year Shibs tried another style, while H&D jumped from Joe Cocker to Flamenco to Bohemian Rhapsody in their FD‘s….C&B choose the same style again and again – Chock already skated to Phantom of the Opera with precious partner, now Doctor Zhivago – love story, Les Miserables – love story, even their Chopin FD was so much full of loving gestures and hugs with each other – so another love story…no variety. I appreciate C&B for great lifts, they are one of the best teams having such acrobatic lifts and they perform them greatly, but this is not dancing or great skating skills.

I have big problem with choreography of couples – hoops and jumps and plenty of cross-overs and simple or no transitions and open holds – it all makes a program more easy…and it is defined in judging system that a program should have transitions, holds etc. Chock & Bates’s choreo and partly Shib’s choreo didn’t respect it. Of course that you are faster when you have simple transitions in open holds. H&D don’t have technique like V&M or some Russians, so they are slow while doing transitions with edges, transitions in holds. But I more appreciate couples who try to improve and push themselves to do better and more demanding programs than those couples who hide their lower quality with choreography. Of course this is coaches and choreographers problem, they are responsible for what their students are performing on the ice.

The sport is about being better then others, it is not about covering disadvantages and showing more easy programs. Program is not about required elements only, it is about the rest of it as well. Dance is about expressing all variety of dances, not about persistent repetition of one style. The best Ice Dancers should be great in technique and great in dancing and presenting all kind of dances.

Monko can irritate you (maybe not good body posture?) but the couple has great technique and despite their young age they already presented enought different kind of dances, different styles – Blues, Frida, Tango, love story, clowns in FD and they were good in it. Those are their qualities…but it surely doesn’t mean that some people can’t get such negative reaction watching them.

sisinka said:

M&K are on the way to be great dancers indeed, I see big potencial in these two. (And I keep another hope for coming back to dancing watching this couple, not only performing elements).
They suffer from big nervousness which leads to mistakes, but surprisingly when it counts and the competition is tough (like last two Russian Nationals and World Team Trophy 2013) – the couple puts everything together and skates the best possible way – and it is something special then.

The couple has great technique, deep edges, long lines, finished movements. You mentioned Ksenia’s upper body position – you are right. While in 2012/13 season her upper body was OK, this season she once again bend her back forward. It needs to be corrected.

This Olympic season Ksenia and Kirill had very unusual program for themselves – funny and sad clown. Not easy program even demanding also face mimics and actor‘s expression, they managed it very well. The couple is the most comfortable in romantic and dramatic stories, for example their Spanish FD in 2012/13 season, Frida FD in 2010/11 season. They are also the couple with good sense for ballroom dances – their Blues FD in 2009/10 and waltz part in SD in 2012/13 season were great.

What is once again big problem – costuming. Ksenia has similar body building like Navka or Krylova with those loooooong legs, but her costumes doesn’t show her perfection.

Height difference was never a problem with old judging system because there were not too acrobatic elements. Now judging system prefers more small ladies (mainly because of acrobatic lifts) so everybody discuss height difference. But it doesn’t have much sense. Even couples with small height difference or small weights differences – V&M, Faiella & Scali were able to execute great lifts and top dances, so what? Ksenia is definitely taller then Meryl but Kirill was always great lifter, so even with long Ksenia’s legs the couple is able to perform all variety of difficult lifts even those with rotation around a neck which is highly uncomfortable for tall girls.
Personally I take this couple like beautiful. Ksenia is another dark haired, dark eyed beauty in non classical way.

What is their big advantage is the fact that they look like couple, they react greatly at each other while skating. They are both dynamic and passionate dancers (which was very obvious in their last season Spanish FD). I suppose that this couple will have one of the best Spanish SD next season.

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Thank you sisinka.
As I said I know little about them. I just saw their programs from this last season and that's it.
The problem with height difference is what you said, the lifts. Tall girls may very well execute them but in many cases they look a bit awkward to me, not effortless. Might just be my impression though-
Anyway, I have to look them more in order to form an opinion.

M/K destined for great things ?
they are back burner reserves with major deficits, not to mention Monko is taller than Khaliavin
they have no future together

sky_fly20 said:

M/K destined for great things ?
they are back burner reserves with major deficits, not to mention Monko is taller than Khaliavin
they have no future together

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Huh that's funny, unless 170 is a larger number than 177, I'm pretty sure Khalivian is taller...

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009763.htm

96skiluvr said:

Huh that's funny, unless 170 is a larger number than 177, I'm pretty sure Khalivian is taller...

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009763.htm

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when she puts on her skates, they are almost of the same height
they are the perfect example of a mismatched couple, even more mismatched than Ilinykh / Zhiganshin

sky_fly20 said:

when she puts on her skates, they are almost of the same height
they are the perfect example of a mismatched couple, even more mismatched than Ilinykh / Zhiganshin

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Right. She puts her skates on and he skates on his foot.

Have been trying to ignore your posts for a while, but they make me laugh so much. Haven't you thought of doing a comedy stand-up show?

sky_fly20 said:

when she puts on her skates, they are almost of the same height
they are the perfect example of a mismatched couple, even more mismatched than Ilinykh / Zhiganshin

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She puts on her skates but he doesn't? Amazing.

MsLiinaLii said:

Right. She puts her skates on and he skates on his foot.

Have been trying to ignore your posts for a while, but they make me laugh so much. Haven't you thought of doing a comedy stand-up show?

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obviously he does put his skates on
take a look at their height difference on the ice, practically non existent !


height difference is a golden rule of Pairs and Ice Dance

sky_fly20 said:

obviously he does put his skates on
take a look at their height difference on the ice, practically non existent !


height difference is a golden rule of Pairs and Ice Dance

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If they both have their skates on, the height difference is the same as without. 7 cm is fine. If height difference was everything, Coomes/Buckland would be double Olympic champions.

Uh, so you're saying that her skates makes up 3" of height difference?! What kinda platform high heel skates is she wearing? And if height is everything, why would Monko deliberately make herself closer in height (or taller, as you previously said) to her partner?!?!

Please, sky_fly, keep going... the comedic value you bring to this forum is pure "gold".

sisinka said:

Speed goes to C&B and maybe H&B, while S&S are rather slower team and H&D are very slow team.

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This must be a comparison of the Olympic season FDs? That's the only scenario where arguing that H&D was slow would make sense. I definitely wouldn't qualify the team's overall skating in the past three years as slow. While there's much they need to work on still, from the beginning of the partnership they showcased power and speed. I'd say that between the lyrical quality/slower tempo of their music and Madison's hip injury, sure, some aspects of their skating suffered this past season. Although, bad hip or not, I think their Finnstep SD still showed quick feet.

Anyway, just to bring the discussion back to topic, I'm very excited about the new Russian teams and seeing how the increased competition makes the "cream rise to the top." Very curious to find out who will be the "cream."