06-12-2014, 05:53 AM
On the Ice
I thought Shibs should have stayed with Igor. I understand why they stayed with Marina, it was comfortable. But if you want to achive something more you need to forget about comfort. Also Marina's dances weren't the best, if it was one of the reasons to stay with her. The Memories of geisha were good, but even Jackson program hadn't shined how it could. So, i think in terms of choreography they wouldn't have lost anything if they had stayed with Igor, but probably their tech would be better.
Originally Posted by uhh
As for H/D i really liked them this season! Especially the connection between them, how he presents here, how they look at each other - it makes something special about their skating. Their programs were modern and interesting and i'm really looking forward to see what they have prepared for the next season.
06-12-2014, 09:08 AM
I think the Shibs got a raw deal from SEVERAL quarters. The ice dance world in general can't seem to forgive them for the temerity of daring to win the bronze medal their first year on seniors (even though, let's face it, they won that bronze by default). Zoueva doesn't seem to know what to do with them--she has either recycled choreography (their FD the year after they won the bronze, the Geisha FD), coopted music from a more famous team (the Duchenays' Missing piece), or mismatched their style with odd musical choices (the MJ FD--though I hope they learn as much from it as Marlie did from their stylistic mismatch--the tango FD). People on this board have tagged them as "over the hill"--even though Maia is still not old enough to legally drink anywhere in her home country! Last year saw them on an upswing. They seem to have regained momentum after several down years. But they absolutely would benefit from working with a different choreographer, if not an entirely new coaching team.
Originally Posted by uhh
I'm now a HUGE fan of Hawayek and Baker. It's amazing to think of what they've accomplished already, with only two years experience as a team. And the new rule changes are going to benefit them, perhaps more than most teams. His footwork and edge quality is outstanding, and he has a real ease as a performer. She's not quite at his level yet, but give her--and them--time. Her improvement last year was exponential, and again, that was only the second year they've been together. I think eventually they will be one of the top three American ID teams this quad, quite possibly as early as this year. Sorry sisinka, but I couldn't disagree with your evaluation of the American dance teams more. I loved H/D's programs last year, but I think you overrate them and underrate all the other American teams.
And I cannot disagree more about M/K. I don't know what it is about them but after watching them once my immediate reaction could only be characterized as "Irrational dislike"--Monko in particular. But it's early days, so maybe my opinion will change. I couldn't stand Carolina Kostner when she started out, and she turned out to be one of my favorite female-solo skaters.
06-12-2014, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by FSGMT
I think you undersell H/B saying 4th place is in their reach. I don't see any scenario in which they're lower than 4th behind Aldrdige/Eaton or Cannuscio/McManus and the other lower ranking teams from 2014 unless one of those senior teams shows up vastly improved.
I don't think they'll challenge Chock and Bates next season. USFS seems to be behind them. Igor is behind them. They improve every season, were fabulous in Boston, solid at the Olympics and ended up top 5 in the World due to some luck in who showed up in Japan. USFS is going to be looking to position them to sneak in for bronze at Worlds. But eventually I think, if D/W do retire, it will be between C/B and H/B for the spot of US#1 dance team.
I won't be surprised if they eclipse Hubbell and Donohue this season. They're a beautiful team with fabulous chemistry and good programs. However, I found them to be the rare team who I enjoy more on a screen than live. Seeing them in Boston, it was just obvious that their basic skating skills weren't as strong. They were slower and scratchier than the top 3 teams. Some of that may have been her injury- I guess we'll see this season. But I got to Boston hoping they would make the team and left thinking the right 3 teams had made it. Personal opinion of course. They're a fun, watchable team but I don't see them standing on a World podium the way I do with C/B or H/B.
Its harder to say if H/B could bump off the Shibs. All being objective I think they're talented enough. USFS seemed to be dumping the Shibs a bit two seasons ago but that seemed to be solely in favor of Chock and Bates. I don't think they'll ever challenge C/B again but I'm not also sure the judges (or Marina who no longer has D/W in the race) will let them slide behind other teams next season. It may come down to how H/B deliver on the GP and who is cleaner. Or it may be predetermined that the shibs are number one based on politics.
I feel bad that this debate has hijacked the Team Russia thread. Maybe its time to start a US dance thread?
06-12-2014, 12:07 PM
Higher points for coach’s reputation is well-known thing. But names of coaches on the top are changing every decade. It was Dubova, Tchaikovskaya, Tarasova, Linichuk, now Zueva…other coaches had few great seasons and then they almost stayed without any students…
Originally Posted by FSGMT
Once a champions leave competive skating than top coach needs another winning couple to prove that he/she is still on the top. Sphilband has World and European champions now, so it looks like he is one step in front of others, but his two best top couples suffer from lower technique – C&L don’t have good edges and speed, Evan Bates doesn’t have good edges plus poor body posture and work of free leg. This doesn’t support the image of Sphilband like great technician, his students should improve dramatically in technique to keep his reputation on high note.
Zueva’s top couples – her number 1 team S&K..nobody knows what to expect. Her number 2 team – S&S are a couple with not great technique, not appreaciated programs, they didn’t make big improvement since they appeared like fresh new couple in 2010/11 season. If Zueva took Hubbell & Donohue – she got the couple with good quality of edges thanks to Krylova, but they lack the speed and their not qualifying for the Olympics gives them lower position comparing to Shibs. So nothing is sure either for Zueva – getting back to the top will be hard work or even might not repeat in next four years.
Krylova & Camerlengo are on rise right now. Their reputation is the lowest so far, but…they became a well-known choreographers. This coaching team has couples whose technique improved during time they worked with them. The coaching team has Silver World medalists and Gold Junior World Medalists right now. Coming to this post Olympic season they have an advantage in person of Pasqualle who I suppose has a sense for Spanish music…and Anjelica herself was a great dancer and Spanish dances suited her perfectly. So at least their senior aged and mature skaters have a great chance to understand what is Spanish music about and how it should be executed.
I still persist on an opinion that the best technical couples last season were V&M, B&S, I&K and S&Z. But comparing Zueva x Sphilband x Krylova & Camerlengo’s teams in technique – K&C teams are better than the rest (I can’t speak about S&K without seeing their competive programs), comparing couples in presentation and dance qualities – I also W&P and C&L above the rest of the teams coached by Zueva, Sphilband and Krylova.
06-12-2014, 12:55 PM
It is OK, we are all free to have our own opinions. My overrating and underrating US couples… Even with new judging rules a description of this cathegory looks to be quite strict – deep edges, beautiful gliding, expression to different sort of music, musicality, all things described in components etc. While some people believe that Ice Dance is about doing all required elements clean and thanks to it even components will rise – I know it happens, but I don’t agree, this is like giving Timothy Goebel 10 for Interpretation and Skating Skills because he landed three quads in a free skate. As well as I don’t agree that quads define skater like an artist, I think that acrobatic lifts and spin don’t define great dancer. And new judging rules agrees with me - Ice Dance has great expression and dance quality described in rules!
Originally Posted by WeakAnkles
US Dance teams – C&B, S&S, H&D and H&B – even not one team meets all requirements which would make a great dancers from them right now.
Skating skills are good for H&D and H&B, while Shibs are in trouble and Bates is not good technician at all.
Speed goes to C&B and maybe H&B, while S&S are rather slower team and H&D are very slow team.
Good presentation even in time when music doesn’t help much goes to H&D, while H&B are juniorish and in their Amelie FD I found their presentation quite pale in some parts – but they are very young. Shibs are not very expressive. Chock & Bates uses big gestures and hoops to music beats which is effective, yes. While at least this year Shibs tried another style, while H&D jumped from Joe Cocker to Flamenco to Bohemian Rhapsody in their FD‘s….C&B choose the same style again and again – Chock already skated to Phantom of the Opera with precious partner, now Doctor Zhivago – love story, Les Miserables – love story, even their Chopin FD was so much full of loving gestures and hugs with each other – so another love story…no variety. I appreciate C&B for great lifts, they are one of the best teams having such acrobatic lifts and they perform them greatly, but this is not dancing or great skating skills.
I have big problem with choreography of couples – hoops and jumps and plenty of cross-overs and simple or no transitions and open holds – it all makes a program more easy…and it is defined in judging system that a program should have transitions, holds etc. Chock & Bates’s choreo and partly Shib’s choreo didn’t respect it. Of course that you are faster when you have simple transitions in open holds. H&D don’t have technique like V&M or some Russians, so they are slow while doing transitions with edges, transitions in holds. But I more appreciate couples who try to improve and push themselves to do better and more demanding programs than those couples who hide their lower quality with choreography. Of course this is coaches and choreographers problem, they are responsible for what their students are performing on the ice.
The sport is about being better then others, it is not about covering disadvantages and showing more easy programs. Program is not about required elements only, it is about the rest of it as well. Dance is about expressing all variety of dances, not about persistent repetition of one style. The best Ice Dancers should be great in technique and great in dancing and presenting all kind of dances.
Monko can irritate you (maybe not good body posture?) but the couple has great technique and despite their young age they already presented enought different kind of dances, different styles – Blues, Frida, Tango, love story, clowns in FD and they were good in it. Those are their qualities…but it surely doesn’t mean that some people can’t get such negative reaction watching them.
06-12-2014, 07:58 PM
I'm a woman. I can be as contrary as I choose!