Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 149

Thread: 55th ISU Congress: Who voted "For" and "Against" anonymous judging

  1. #106
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    Judging should be.
    If federations are the problem, then they should face sanctions instead of making their interaction with judges untrackable for the public and officials.
    A judging system that maintains artistic integrity will always have ways to be taken advantage of. How could it be otherwise. If we remove the artistic scores then maybe but I personally think that would kill the sport faster.

    Judging a subjective sport can never be 100% objective. There will always be results that will not please some and elate others. What one calls fraud another may consider a close call. How can we say with certainty who is right and wrong.

  2. #107
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    346
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    The original concept of anonymous judging was designed to allow judges to have independent thought free of expectations, or pressure, from their own federations and pressure from others.
    I think this is why Finland prefers the present system, they think it works better...

    I might need to clarify that when I wrote above "I got the impression that it was not Rahkamo's decision alone." I was referring to the way Finland voted and not to the composition of the Finnish delegation...

  3. #108
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    France
    Posts
    140
    Quote Originally Posted by Sara View Post
    I think this is why Finland prefers the present system, they think it works better...

    I might need to clarify that when I wrote above "I got the impression that it was not Rahkamo's decision alone." I was referring to the way Finland voted and not to the composition of the Finnish delegation...
    It makes sense, yes. I can see why now. Thank you for all the informations.

  4. #109
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,199
    Quote Originally Posted by machin View Post
    It makes sense, yes. I can see why now. Thank you for all the informations.
    I'm completely against anonymous judging on a personal level but I can still understand why some would want it. Especially without a full proof plan to replace it.

  5. #110
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    346
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I'm completely against anonymous judging on a personal level but I can still understand why some would want it. Especially without a full proof plan to replace it.
    My exact thoughts!

    Even though the Finnish fed voted no, they seem to be very interested in developing and improving the present system which they know is far from perfect!

  6. #111
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    So, is this concept based on assumption that judges are honest and federations are not?
    Yes. The official line taken by the ISU (however skeptical we may be about their true motives) in the wake of the Salt Lake City controversy was that honest but emotionally fragile and easily influenced judges like Madame Le Gougne could be bullied and persuaded by federation heads who were playing politics.

    To me, I think it is naive to imagine that anonymous judging addresses this problem. Suppose the fix is in and the big bad federation federation head tells the meek, mousie judge, here's the deal: "Give high scores to this skater and low scores to that one, if at all possible." Suppose the judge, in secret if trembling defiance, doesn't do it.

    Then afterward the judge gets called on the carpet and the federation head says, "Well? Where are those extra high marks I was expecting." So the judge says, "Oh, yes, see, it's right here. Judge #5, that's me."

    Then the federation head says, "Hey, wait a minute, the other judge that was in on the conspiracy just said that he was judge number 5. No more plum judging assignments for you!"

  7. #112
    Bored
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    A judging system that maintains artistic integrity will always have ways to be taken advantage of. How could it be otherwise. If we remove the artistic scores then maybe but I personally think that would kill the sport faster.

    Judging a subjective sport can never be 100% objective. There will always be results that will not please some and elate others. What one calls fraud another may consider a close call. How can we say with certainty who is right and wrong.
    It's not "a subjective sport". Subjective sport or subjective game would make a pretty absurd concept. FS is a sport that is judged by consent. So, it's not a question about "who" is right or wrong but about "what" is right or wrong.

    Anyway, that's philosophy. In fact I only wanted to know if Finnish judges have experienced any actual pressure from their or other fed in their practice but if there's no information then fine.

  8. #113
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,199
    How is judging artistic interpretation, execution, and performance not subjective. 3/5 of the PCS score is purely subjective. It's like judging a piece of art. How can that be done objectively? Even the bullets to award GOE's are highly subjective.

  9. #114
    Bored
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    345
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    How is judging artistic interpretation, execution, and performance not subjective. 3/5 of the PCS score is purely subjective. It's like judging a piece of art. How can that be done objectively? Even the bullets to award GOE's are highly subjective.
    I respect your subjective opinion that this is subjective

    But I still stick to my subjective opinion that, if you want to play with other kids then honesty matters

  10. #115
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    In fact I only wanted to know if Finnish judges have experienced any actual pressure from their or other fed in their practice...
    My impression is that it is not so much the "pressure" that is the culprit but the whole structure and culture of the national federation-based ISU. Each federation sends a team to major competitions, This team consists of skaters, coaches, judges, officials, etc., all charged with the mission of securing the best possible result for the national team.

    It was an eye-opener for me when, in the recent election of a new president for the United States Figure Skating Association, one of the candidates campaigned on the following issue. Don't vote for the other guy because he is an international ISU judge. If he is elected USFSA president, that will take him out of the judges' pool and he won't be able to help boost the fortunes of American skaters any more.

  11. #116
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,199
    Don't vote for the other guy because he is an international ISU judge. If he is elected USFSA president, that will take him out of the judges' pool and he won't be able to help boost the fortunes of American skaters any more.
    Passive aggressive pressure? To me this is a not so coded message to any US judge within the pool.

  12. #117
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    98
    It was more like, don't for that guy because he's banned by the ISU (for forming the World Skating Federation) so he can't be credentialed at ISU events to help boost the fortunes of American skaters.

    http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/when-t...ters-insulted/

  13. #118
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,893
    One story:
    Very few international figure skating judges have any interest in actually judging figure skating. What they're really interested in is a completely different kind of contest, a political game that's played among officials and federations. The winners are the federations who get the most medals for their skaters. Individual officials also keep score, privately if not openly among themselves, as to how much they can affect results in favor of their federations' skaters, both by manipulating their own scores and by making deals and get other officials to help their skaters win.

    The rules, under both judging systems, are a sham to trick skaters, coaches, and the public into believing that a fair sport called figure skating with results based on the actual skating actually exists. Judges learn a minimal amount about skating technique (unless they were skaters themselves so they already know, but they don't really need that knowledge to play the judging game) and about the sham rules, just enough to maintain the pretense that the actual skating makes some difference to the results.

    As scrutiny into the deception increased, especially after the 2002 Olympics, the rules were changed to make it easier for judges and officials to play their real game and harder for anyone else to prove what they were doing.

    Another story:
    The vast majority of figure skating judges love figure skating and take their task of rewarding good skating very seriously. They do their best to learn as much as they can about the standards and rules and to apply this knowledge as fairly as they can. When they get together at competitions they talk among themselves about best principles and learn to see even more aspects of the skating by discussing their disagreements.

    Most feel strongly about their own opinions and would be happy to stand by and defend their decisions publicly.

    Given the qualitative (as opposed to quantitative) nature of most of the decisions judges need to make, there is a known psychological tendency for judges to perceive the skaters from their home countries, whom they may have been following since childhood, and the skaters whose style they particularly enjoy as performing even better than they actually do, and to perceive rivals to their favorites as performing worse. Judges do their best to become consciously aware of their biases and to guard against these tendencies, but sometimes they overcompensate and sometimes they get carried away with honest emotional enthusiasm.

    Federation leaders encourage their officials to support the home country skaters.

    At international meets, judges and other officials tend to point out to each other exciting skaters especially from their home countries and also to complain about pet peeves, skaters making bad choices or exhibiting technical weaknesses they find particularly annoying.

    Referees instruct judges on points about the skating to give particular attention to.

    Each of the above can be meant entirely honestly, but occasionally they are very clearly intended as efforts to influence judges to score particular skater higher or lower than they might otherwise. And with the knowledge that such attempts at manipulation do sometimes exist, it's easy for judges to read such intentions even into honest expressions and believe that pressure to favor particular skaters apart from the actual skating is rampant. Judges who feel this pressure -- from their federations, from the referees, from their fellow judges, maybe the occasional outside mobster -- and believe (perhaps from direct experience) that they will be taken to task for judging according to their conscience, find it more comfortable to judge honestly if those federation officials, refs, judges, or outsiders won't be able to prove that they resisted the pressure to cheat.



    According to the first story, anonymity would serve the cheaters. According to the second, it would serve the honest judges.

    Which would mean there might be different reasons for supporting or opposing anonymity, depending whether the supporter or opponent is inclined to focus on judging the skating or on playing the political game, and how much pressure they feel to do the opposite.

    There are also probably some delegates to the ISU Congress (e.g., those representing speedskating federations) who really don't care one way or another about anonymity but who have their own agendas for the voting and are willing to make deals with other federations or ISU officials about how to vote on anonymity in order to gain support for other proposals about which they feel more strongly.


    I expect both stories are probably true to some degree.

    As outside observers who have not experienced the culture of international judging or of the ISU Congress politics ourselves, we would be dishonest to claim that we know that one version is always true and the other always false, or that we know for a fact what the motivations of any of the delegates were. All we can do is speculate.

  14. #119
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    346
    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    [B]

    As outside observers who have not experienced the culture of international judging or of the ISU Congress politics ourselves, we would be dishonest to claim that we know that one version is always true and the other always false, or that we know for a fact what the motivations of any of the delegates were. All we can do is speculate.
    But some delegates were actually willing to share their opinions and motives with "outsiders" too.

  15. #120
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    It's not "a subjective sport". Subjective sport or subjective game would make a pretty absurd concept. FS is a sport that is judged by consent. So, it's not a question about "who" is right or wrong but about "what" is right or wrong.
    Still, it's tricky. What is right is that the skater enhance the choreography with nuanced incidental movements timed to the structure of the music.

    The who comes in when one judges says that this skater's movements enhanced the choreography and were well-timed to the musical phrasing, while another judge observing the same movements finds them jarring, lacking in grace, and irrelevant to any choreographic purpose.

    There was a discussion a while back about whether Patrick Chan's Phantom of the Opera should be marked down because he had (to quote Johnny Weir) "star-fish hands." Others thought the deliberate stiff outspread fingers were the perfect touch for the scary phantom character.

    http://www.vancouversun.com/cms/binary/2583629.jpg

Page 8 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •