Page 8 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 182

Thread: Medal Contenders (Favorites) For 2018 PyeonChang Olympics

  1. #106
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,770
    Okay, I recalculated this, and you're right, I was misinformed. He does indeed get more points by doing two 4Ts.

    But the point still stands: a fall on a quad salchow is worth more than a "meh" triple lutz. And didn't Hanyu beat a nearly-clean Patrick Chan at that same Grand Prix Final, by 5 points TES, in the LP, despite the fall?

  2. #107
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post

    But the point still stands: a fall on a quad salchow is worth more than a "meh" triple lutz. And didn't Hanyu beat a nearly-clean Patrick Chan at that same Grand Prix Final, by 5 points TES, in the LP, despite the fall?
    Actually as I remember Patrick did 4T2T instead 4T3T, but still Patrick has a little easier rest of program because, Hanyu can do 2x 3A while Patrick is having 2x 3 Ltz + 3A in first part

  3. #108
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,770
    That's why I said "nearly clean." I know Patrick mucked the 3T and didn't do a second 3A. Maybe my brain is too 6.0 and I should just go the way of the dinosaurs, but to me doubling a 3T (especially on the end of a quad) is a lesser problem than falling on your opening quad.

    Even with Patrick's errors, it shouldn't enough for Hanyu to beat him by 5 points in the FS TES.

  4. #109
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    3,203
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Okay, I recalculated this, and you're right, I was misinformed. He does indeed get more points by doing two 4Ts.

    But the point still stands: a fall on a quad salchow is worth more than a "meh" triple lutz. And didn't Hanyu beat a nearly-clean Patrick Chan at that same Grand Prix Final, by 5 points TES, in the LP, despite the fall?
    It blows my mind on how hard it is to quantify the proper score for a fall. If you make a 4s fall worth less than a decent 3ltz then why go for it. If you make the 4s with a fall worth more you are encouraging a splatfest almost It's not like I'm trying to identify a graviton or something but it feels like another dimension may be required.

  5. #110
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Even with Patrick's errors, it shouldn't enough for Hanyu to beat him by 5 points in the FS TES.

    It depends how you will look on that, because if you would take points for this fall quad sal completely out of program, so -6 points from Hanyu's TES he would be only 1 point on TES behind Patrick without having any points for this jump pass

    and then when you will add my calculation with nice 4T3T instead of fall on 4S his TES would be around 8 points higher than Patrick's

  6. #111
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,770
    If you make a 4s fall worth less than a decent 3ltz then why go for it.
    Because there's a big reward when you land it.

    (Despite the snark, I agree with the point you're making. It's impossible to quantify these things properly in numbers).

    It depends how you will look on that, because if you would take points for this fall quad sal completely out of program, so -6 points from Hanyu's TES he would be only 1 point on TES behind Patrick without any points for this jump pass
    I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying 6 points is negligible so we shouldn't debate if 4S fall should be worth 6.5 (one extreme) or 0 (another extreme)?

  7. #112
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North of the world
    Posts
    4,141
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Even with Patrick's errors, it shouldn't enough for Hanyu to beat him by 5 points in the FS TES.
    Indeed it was enough because PChan's BV was 80.37 and Yuzuru's BV was 88.52
    Even a fall on the 4S, his BV was still much higher.
    You can check it here: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    Edited: and PChan's GOE (16.76) was much much higher than Hanyu(13.51).

  8. #113
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post

    I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying 6 points is negligible so we shouldn't debate if 4S fall should be worth 6.5 (one extreme) or 0 (another extreme)?

    I just very hypotethical used fall=no points for the jump completely, so his TES even without that still would be huge. But I am going too crazy with that I think


    I don't think fall on rotated quad should be penalized much more than it is now, maybe increasing deduction size with next falls would be good idea, like 1 , 3 ,5 as someone suggested on forum

  9. #114
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,770
    @Meoima
    I know how he beat Patrick. I've seen the protocols. I'm not sure I agree with him beating Patrick by 5 points TES. I'm not sure I like a system that produced those numbers. That's my opinion.

    @HanDomi
    But 6 points is not negligible. I know his TES will be huge even without those 6 points, but consider: the freaking Sochi Olympics were decided by less than 6 points! If Hanyu got 0 points for his 4S fall, Patrick Chan would be Olympic champion. (I'm not saying Patrick Chan should be Olympic champion, but that's how much difference 6 points makes. And let's not even get into Vancouver...)

    I don't think fall on rotated quad should be penalized much more than it is now, maybe increasing deduction size with next falls would be good idea, like 1 , 3 ,5 as someone suggested on forum
    Heh, yours truly has suggested increasing deduction size for subsequent falls. But I'm sure I'm not the first or only one. I can deal with -2 for first fall, -3 for subsequent fall, something like that (sorry, -1 is too lenient considering the huge inflated marks everyone's posting these days).

  10. #115
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North of the world
    Posts
    4,141
    I think ISU know that the deduction for the falls is too lenient but still they want to encourage the skaters to execute more difficult elements so they haven't changed the rules for deduction? I am curious about what they are thinking.

    Maybe they want to reduce the raising TES of all skaters so they have just added the new Rules for UR and edges call? They are giving more power to the tech panel. I am not sure how all of this will turn out, though.

  11. #116
    Ice is slippery.
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    399
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    @HanDomi
    But 6 points is not negligible. I know his TES will be huge even without those 6 points, but consider: the freaking Sochi Olympics were decided by less than 6 points! If Hanyu got 0 points for his 4S fall, Patrick Chan would be Olympic champion. (I'm not saying Patrick Chan should be Olympic champion, but that's how much difference 6 points makes. And let's not even get into Vancouver...)
    I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make with that one. That the 6 point lead is significant because it was ONLY 6 points and if the rules was that if someone falls on a jump it would equates to the entire jump being invalidated which would mean Chan instead of Hanyu becomes OGM? Following that then I'm willing to bet barely anyone will attempt a quad, hence everyone's placement will be different and not just 1-2.

  12. #117
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North of the world
    Posts
    4,141
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    But 6 points is not negligible. I know his TES will be huge even without those 6 points, but consider: the freaking Sochi Olympics were decided by less than 6 points! If Hanyu got 0 points for his 4S fall, Patrick Chan would be Olympic champion.
    If a fall on the 4S equal to 0 point, then stumble and 2 foot landing should receive 2 points deduction each. PChan stumbled in 3 jumps. 4T, 3A and the 2A.
    They were both equally messy in the long program. It's hard to say which performance was worse. if it were me, both could have been reduced 5 points each in the PCS.

  13. #118
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,770
    ^^My only argument is that 6 points isn't negligible (see my entire conversation with HanDomi). I do not think Patrick Chan should've won the Olympics, especially considering his SP. They were both a mess in the LP. Of course everyone's layouts will be different if falls were worth 0 points--in fact, that's my point: falls being worth 6.5 has an effect; those points aren't negligible.

    (I will note, however: Plenty of innovations and daring elements took place under 6.0, which was much harsher toward falls. But that's a totally different conversation).

    Maybe they want to reduce the raising TES of all skaters so they have just added the new Rules for UR and edges call?
    Seems like the wrong direction to move in, imo. Imagine someone like Mao losing and losing to girls with falls, even when she lands her jumps on one foot and continues doing 3A until she's 27. (I'm not saying UR and edge problems should go undetected. Just that punishing them more and leaving the fall deduction the same will create even more baffling results). Also, if the ISU wants to encourage people to take risks, I don't think increasing edge/UR penalty is going to do that (the exact opposite, in fact).

  14. #119
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North of the world
    Posts
    4,141
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Seems like the wrong direction to move in, imo. Imagine someone like Mao losing and losing to girls with falls, even when she lands her jumps on one foot and continues doing 3A until she's 27. (I'm not saying UR and edge problems should go undetected. Just that punishing them more and leaving the fall deduction the same will create even more baffling results). Also, if the ISU wants to encourage people to take risks, I don't think increasing edge/UR penalty is going to do that (the exact opposite, in fact).
    I think they will use UR with the falls. Maybe they keep the -1 point deduction with the fall to encourage skaters try hard jumps, but UR and edge calls might be applied for the falls if they want to reduce the TES.

    I mean, they can use the UR and edge calls to reduce the points if skater falls. The thing is, they can also abuse that rules to hold down skaters that are not their favorites.

  15. #120
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    675
    If a fall on jump get 'zero' we will see no one will be attempting quad or 3+3 for the ladies. It will be like going back to 40-50 years ago where everyone is doing double and triple.
    I do think a fall should be '-2' deduction instead of one, considering GOE can go up to +3.

Page 8 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •