Spirals | Golden Skate

Spirals

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Would someone please discuss the judging criteria for spirals? What makes Shizuka's a level three while Sasha's is a level two? What level is Michelle's? Any other info would be appreciated too. Thanks!

Piel
 

nymkfan51

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I don't know for sure either, but I would certainly think that COE and extension are factors ... and how about spirals on both the left and right leg?

Plus ... maybe the length (or ice coverage) of the spiral?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think skating fans get hung up on how high the extension of the free leg. I belive the spiral as it is with the arabesque in ballet is the stretch of the free leg. It is important that the knee is turned out and the toe is pointed. The free leg can be extended from any position of the body The levels of height of the free leg in ballet is dependent on the choreography. All ballet dancers have very flexible arabesques but they must be in line with the choreography,.

In competitive skating, i find that most skaters do not have the proper turned out knee and pointed toe. That is part of the basic position. How high the leg becomes important only if the basic position is met. By and large Ice Dancers have very appealing spirals but in line with their choreography. The difficulty with the spiral position is the edge on which it is held. The higher the free leg goes, the more difficult it is to hold the edge. A big plus for the top Ladies in present competition.

The more difficult spiral is the change edge spiral. Shizuka does have a change edge spiral which is pronounced. However, from my point of view, I do not see the knee turned out and the toe pointed. Sasha's free leg is quite stark and her change of edge from what I noticed does not seem to be changing edges but goes from inside to flat. When watching Michelle do the change edge spiral I see a clean cut change of edge and extremely high free leg that does not bobble during the execution.

What's a poor judge to do? I know what I would do but I'd rather not say because I like all three Ladies' skating and I don't want to judge the ability of all three on one element.

Joe

In Ladies Singles,
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Thanks Joe. Do you know if Michelle's spiral is a level three like Shizukas's. If not, how is SA's better?
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
IIRC a couple of times I have heard the announcers say that SA had increased the difficulty of her spirals to a level three.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
Piel said:
IIRC a couple of times I have heard the announcers say that SA had increased the difficulty of her spirals to a level three.

Yeah, it was only in GPF when SA added that COE spiral with two hands hold her free leg in Bielman position, but with a clear edge change, into her spiral sequence, that one was ranked as level three spiral.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Piel said:
Thanks Joe. Do you know if Michelle's spiral is a level three like Shizukas's. If not, how is SA's better?

Hi Piel - This topic will get a lot of play. I wonder if it gets more play than the Level of the Layback!

Anyhow, no one has mentioned what the lcriteria is for the levels of the spirals. I believe it has to do with the change edge spiral. If so, Shirzuka does change edges.

If it has to do with the free leg, Shizuka could use some more work, which I am sure Tarrazsova will be insistant that Shizuka's toe does not appear to be turned out.

Reiterating, if it's just the change edge then Shizuka is doing fine. Esthetically, I would like to see the toe pointing out.

Joe
 
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PrincessLeppard

~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
Final Flight
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The reason Sasha can't get to level 3 is that to be level three there has to be almost no stroking between changing positions and if you watch Sasha, she's got LOTS of crossovers to maintain speed through her spiral.

Also, as Joe pointed out, her change of "edge" isn't really. She goes onto a flat, and she can't even hold that for more than a second. I know everyone raves about her extension, but if she dropped it a couple of inches, she might be able to do a true COE spiral. Just a thought.

Laura :)
 

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Yeah, it was only in GPF when SA added that COE spiral with two hands hold her free leg in Bielman position, but with a clear edge change, into her spiral sequence, that one was ranked as level three spiral.

Thanks everyone. Now I am really confused though. The criteria for a level three spiral say "no use use of hands to hold the free leg". Is that OK in SA's case because of the difficulty of the Bielman position (which could not be assumed without holding the free leg)?:confused: :confused: :confused:

IMO the criteria leave the judges with way too much wriggle room to interpret as they will:rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye:

gkelly, loved you in Brigadoon:D

Piel
 
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wskeightfan

Spectator
Joined
Feb 2, 2004
According to the COP documents, the caller decides the level and the judges the grade with differing criteria for each. Seems like extension, flexibility, body line are big parts of the grade, not the level. In the GPF Sasha ended up with the higher total element score even with a lower level rating; Shizuka 4.0, Sasha 4.3. Sasha did have a level 3 spiral in her Trophee Lalique short program. Her total element score was 6.2. Michelle could have a higher difficulty spiral but end up with a lower score than Sasha just as Shizuka did.
 
Joined
Aug 3, 2003
Wskeightfan, you beat me to it, lol. Of course you are correct about Sasha's spiral step sequence being rated as a Level 3 for her SP at Trophee Lalique. For TL, Tarasova had her initial spiral go from a FOE to a FIE. Shizuka did a similar change-edge spiral at GPF.

Throughout the GP series, except her GPF long, Shizuka's sp-stp-seq (remember, it is a spiral step sequence, not just a spiral:)) were rated as Level 1. But her positions were not very clean nor held very long and the whole sequence seemed rather rushed. In her GPF long, the difference was amazing. In addition to the change-edge, the positions were better and she held them longer. In sum, Shizza's SSS was rated Level 1 in every GP performance, short or long, except her GPF long, where it was rated Level 3. The main things she improved were positions, timing, and adding the change-edge.

Sasha's SSS throughout the GP series, including the GPF, was rated at Level 2 for every performance except her TL short, where it was rated Level 3. I'd have to check my tape to be sure, but I think in her GPF short Sasha went back to her old sequence without the change-edge. In sum, Sasha's SSS was rated as Level 2 for every GP performance except her TL short, where she added the change-edge. Her other two spiral positions remained the same as before.

Also, doing a change-edge spiral as a change from a FIE to a FOE or vice versa is not the only change-edge a skater can do. This wasn't under the COP, so I don't know how it would have been rated, but Irina used to do a FOE changing 180 degrees to a BIE without lowering the free leg.

As for Michelle's SSS, if she does a GP event, the whole series, or if Nats uses the COP, we shall see. though my bet would be on Level 3.;)
Rgirl
 

Longhornliz

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
I would think that the way the skater enters and exits into a spiral would make it more challenging. I don’t think that it is necessarily taken into consideration under the COP but some skaters use several strokes in-between spiral combos to keep speed op. MK does an interesting move in her LP where she bends her supporting leg (which makes it much more difficult to balance at such speed) just as she approaches the boards and uses the momentum created by bending the leg to finish the spiral into a turn. I don’t know if that is considered part of the spiral element itself or if it just adds to the overall presentation and composition marks.

Also I think the judges are paying quite a bit of attention to the smoothness of the blade edge across the ice. Much like in pairs skating where they focus in on the footwork of the base partner as he has a girl up in a lift. Shizuka always cuts across the ice like a warm knife through butter, Miki however is very choppy and you can see her shifting her weight causing her to loose forward momentum during the spiral.

I dont know anything, these are just some of the finer points that I like to look for in a routine.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
It's really starting to annoy me now when everytime the announcer sees Cohen's spiral and says "this is simply the best", "it's untouchable" blah blah blah. If they actually pay attention to what is happening between the ice and the blade rather than the 180 degree split, they might have a different opinion. And as a post I read before said "Sasha spends most of the time on the "change" in her chang-of-edge spiral". Her spiral just doesn't seem to have that "gliding" feeling to it and sometimes it looks like it's about to stop. Carolina' Kostner's speed and edging on her spiral (COE) puts Cohen's to total shame.
And maybe it's just me, but while I find her position amazing (in that it requires incredible flexibility and strength especially to hold it for a while), it doesn't appear too aesthetically pleasing to my eyes. IMO the classic arabesque position a la Nikodinov, Katia Gordeeva, Oksana Baiul and Tiffany Stiegler are much more beautiful to look at...it always makes my heart stop when someone achieves that position and extension.
 

Longhornliz

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
I disagree shine, I think that the back strength required to do an extension at the height sasha raises her leg is impressive. I have always been impressed by her speed. I think part of the reason commentators point out her spiral is because the occasional viewer may not understand the various elements of a program. I think that sasha is wise to put her spirals at such key building points in her music.... I think it adds some wow factor.

I agree with dick and peggy that her spiral is amazing. I think we can thank michelle kwan for adding attention to the spiral as a key element in a well rounded program. She was really unparalleled in her spiral ability until the next round of tiny baby skaters came out who were trying to emulate her. It's interesting that now she seems to emphasize her line footwork, and the audience responds to these sections as if they are her new beloved trademark. It’s all cyclical… who knows what new elements will become the most emphasized next, perhaps spins. I love arikawa’s Ina Bower, I think her back extension is unmatched (and peggy always calls attention to arikawa’s ina bower because she was known for them in her day)
 
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