Spirals

[wskeightfan]

According to the COP documents, the caller decides the level and the judges the grade with differing criteria for each. Seems like extension, flexibility, body line are big parts of the grade, not the level. In the GPF Sasha ended up with the higher total element score even with a lower level rating; Shizuka 4.0, Sasha 4.3. Sasha did have a level 3 spiral in her Trophee Lalique short program. Her total element score was 6.2. Michelle could have a higher difficulty spiral but end up with a lower score than Sasha just as Shizuka did.

[Rgirl]

Wskeightfan, you beat me to it, lol. Of course you are correct about Sasha's spiral step sequence being rated as a Level 3 for her SP at Trophee Lalique. For TL, Tarasova had her initial spiral go from a FOE to a FIE. Shizuka did a similar change-edge spiral at GPF.

Throughout the GP series, except her GPF long, Shizuka's sp-stp-seq (remember, it is a spiral step sequence, not just a spiral) were rated as Level 1. But her positions were not very clean nor held very long and the whole sequence seemed rather rushed. In her GPF long, the difference was amazing. In addition to the change-edge, the positions were better and she held them longer. In sum, Shizza's SSS was rated Level 1 in every GP performance, short or long, except her GPF long, where it was rated Level 3. The main things she improved were positions, timing, and adding the change-edge.

Sasha's SSS throughout the GP series, including the GPF, was rated at Level 2 for every performance except her TL short, where it was rated Level 3. I'd have to check my tape to be sure, but I think in her GPF short Sasha went back to her old sequence without the change-edge. In sum, Sasha's SSS was rated as Level 2 for every GP performance except her TL short, where she added the change-edge. Her other two spiral positions remained the same as before.

Also, doing a change-edge spiral as a change from a FIE to a FOE or vice versa is not the only change-edge a skater can do. This wasn't under the COP, so I don't know how it would have been rated, but Irina used to do a FOE changing 180 degrees to a BIE without lowering the free leg.

As for Michelle's SSS, if she does a GP event, the whole series, or if Nats uses the COP, we shall see. though my bet would be on Level 3.
Rgirl

[Longhornliz]

I would think that the way the skater enters and exits into a spiral would make it more challenging. I don’t think that it is necessarily taken into consideration under the COP but some skaters use several strokes in-between spiral combos to keep speed op. MK does an interesting move in her LP where she bends her supporting leg (which makes it much more difficult to balance at such speed) just as she approaches the boards and uses the momentum created by bending the leg to finish the spiral into a turn. I don’t know if that is considered part of the spiral element itself or if it just adds to the overall presentation and composition marks.

Also I think the judges are paying quite a bit of attention to the smoothness of the blade edge across the ice. Much like in pairs skating where they focus in on the footwork of the base partner as he has a girl up in a lift. Shizuka always cuts across the ice like a warm knife through butter, Miki however is very choppy and you can see her shifting her weight causing her to loose forward momentum during the spiral.

I dont know anything, these are just some of the finer points that I like to look for in a routine.

[shine]

It's really starting to annoy me now when everytime the announcer sees Cohen's spiral and says "this is simply the best", "it's untouchable" blah blah blah. If they actually pay attention to what is happening between the ice and the blade rather than the 180 degree split, they might have a different opinion. And as a post I read before said "Sasha spends most of the time on the "change" in her chang-of-edge spiral". Her spiral just doesn't seem to have that "gliding" feeling to it and sometimes it looks like it's about to stop. Carolina' Kostner's speed and edging on her spiral (COE) puts Cohen's to total shame.
And maybe it's just me, but while I find her position amazing (in that it requires incredible flexibility and strength especially to hold it for a while), it doesn't appear too aesthetically pleasing to my eyes. IMO the classic arabesque position a la Nikodinov, Katia Gordeeva, Oksana Baiul and Tiffany Stiegler are much more beautiful to look at...it always makes my heart stop when someone achieves that position and extension.

[Longhornliz]

I disagree shine, I think that the back strength required to do an extension at the height sasha raises her leg is impressive. I have always been impressed by her speed. I think part of the reason commentators point out her spiral is because the occasional viewer may not understand the various elements of a program. I think that sasha is wise to put her spirals at such key building points in her music.... I think it adds some wow factor.

I agree with dick and peggy that her spiral is amazing. I think we can thank michelle kwan for adding attention to the spiral as a key element in a well rounded program. She was really unparalleled in her spiral ability until the next round of tiny baby skaters came out who were trying to emulate her. It's interesting that now she seems to emphasize her line footwork, and the audience responds to these sections as if they are her new beloved trademark. It’s all cyclical… who knows what new elements will become the most emphasized next, perhaps spins. I love arikawa’s Ina Bower, I think her back extension is unmatched (and peggy always calls attention to arikawa’s ina bower because she was known for them in her day)

[shine]

Which part of my post do you disagree with? I did acknowledge that her spiral position is amazing. My main point was that it's not "the best" or "untouchable".
And Yukina Ota's Ina Bauer is definitely comparable to Arakawa's if not better.

[Longhornliz]

its just a difference in my esthetic preferences.... neither of us is "right" or "wrong".... but I kinda disagree that she doesnt seem to glide across the ice with speed... seems pretty fast to me

[gezando]

She was really unparalleled in her spiral ability until the next round of tiny baby skaters came out who were trying to emulate her.

Michelle's FI/FO spiral is still unparalleled. I agree with Shine, Carolina's FI spiral is absolutely awesome, the deep inside edge with the speed, flow, and the gliding feeling you get from watching her. I love Michelle, Carolina, and Sarah Hughes spiral for the flow, the deep edges and the speed, the curvingpaths they sail on the ice is incredible. To me spirals is not about WOW factor at all.

[PrincessLeppard]

Victoria Pavuk has a gorgeous, fast spiral with fabulous extension that is on a SERIOUS edge. If she learns to hold it longer, she will kill with that move.

I have to agree that Dick and Peggy rave only about Sasha's extension, which is difficult, but they NEVER point out how shallow her edge is, and they raved about her change of "edge" spiral that really wasn't (inside edge, flat, out of spiral). They also never point out how many crossovers it takes her between positions to maintain her speed. Maybe Robin can work on these things with her, since Sarah had such a nice spiral.

Laura

[Joesitz]

quote:
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She was really unparalleled in her spiral ability until the next round of tiny baby skaters came out who were trying to emulate her.
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Michelle's free leg in the spiral is very well extended and still incredibly high, and it stays in that position without a bobble when she changes edges. Michelle does not use the flat on her spirals. The flat takes the pressure off the skater.

Joe