Keeping/bringing back old programs | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Keeping/bringing back old programs

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
But that is the other skater's choice also.

And I'm grateful for it. If all skaters returned to old programs, FS would be quite boring. To me, if not to others. I have the deepest respect for skaters who come up with a new program each season, even if it doesn't work in the end and they have to return to the old one.

And continuing with an old program can be just as difficult as getting a new one. Imagine the pressure Jason would have faced from the judges and audiences if he'd reprised Riverdance.

I am still not following. Both skaters are subject to the same pressure IMO - one needs to present it better than last season, the other is anxious if the new program would work at all. Same thing in my eyes, if not in favor of the first skater who at least knows how their program was received last year, and what to refine to make it work better. And I'm still not seeing how tweaking and perfecting something already ingrained can be compared to learning a completely new program, with even less time to prepare due to putting together music & basic structure first.
 

Anastasi14

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Skaters can do whatever they want. If someone wants to perfect their program 5 seasons in a row, they can. But I'm equally free to like and not like whatever I want. And I happen not to usually like when programs are brought back. :] Also, how is it not unfair when one skater uses a program they already know, and another skater opts for a new thing? Please explain. Because to me, the other skater sounds like they have a disadvantage.

I think everything depends on a quality of the program. Because a lot of skaters just change the music/costume and add some arm moves and final pose, but if you compare the new program to the old ones you will find that it's almost the same program and you can even see the same parts with the same steps/transitions/moves etc. Can we really call it a new program? But yes, the music will be new :)In this case i don't think that creating of such "new" program is much more difficult than keeping the old one.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
I don't think it's unfair because all skaters have the option to not change their programs. Patrick Chan's programs are so complex that it's understandable why he prefers to change only one program per season. I can't think of any program that he's used more than 2 seasons which is perfectly acceptable. I liked Carolina's original Bolero better but she never performed it cleanly and only skated it a few times so I was glad she brought it back for the Olympics. I was also glad that Jeremy Abbott brought back his Exogenesis LP. I have to admit though as good as Yuzu's SP was, I was kind of getting bored of it.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I don't think it's unfair because all skaters have the option to not change their programs. Patrick Chan's programs are so complex that it's understandable why he prefers to change only one program per season. I can't think of any program that he's used more than 2 seasons which is perfectly acceptable. I liked Carolina's original Bolero better but she never performed it cleanly so I was glad she brought it back for the Olympics. I was also glad that Jeremy Abbott brought back his Exogenesis LP. I have to admit though as good as Yuzu's SP was, I was kind of getting bored of it.

Didn't Chan use Take Five three seasons in a row? That was a bit much.
 

jennyanydots

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Didn't Chan use Take Five three seasons in a row? That was a bit much.

He only used it for the 2010–2011 and 2011–2012 seasons. The season before that his SP was Tango de los Exilados and the season after that was Elegie in E Flat Minor. His most recent Four Seasons program was completely different for the original, different cuts and choreographer, so I don't consider that a repeat either.
 

Coltrocks12

On the Ice
Joined
May 18, 2014
I like to see new material from skaters every year, but I understand why some programs get kept for multiple seasons. I agree that sometimes shifting to old programs is a natural way to jettison a new program that isn't working as they don't have time to create a new one. I wish that Scott and Tessa would have ditched their 2014 program and went back to the Carmen free dance before Sochi.

At least with the short dance in Ice Dancing, they change the footwork sequence every year (or every other year) so we get new material there. I also think those that keep programs for two years might be trying to grow into the program. I would get bored having to do the same music and choreo for two years, but that is just me. :)
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I understand when a skater feels s/he has an unfinished business with a particular program and I will celebrate with him or her when the program's potential is fulfilled in congruence with the skater's potential. Sometimes, an old program is reprised after the season has started and the new program is just not working out, especially when it's an important season for the skater. Fine with me as long as it's not already been used the two preceding seasons.

To me it's better and appreciable for a skater to reinterpret the same music, or a different version of it, than to skate all programs as if to the same music.
 

flutzy13

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
I like to see new material from skaters every year, but I understand why some programs get kept for multiple seasons. I agree that sometimes shifting to old programs is a natural way to jettison a new program that isn't working as they don't have time to create a new one. I wish that Scott and Tessa would have ditched their 2014 program and went back to the Carmen free dance before Sochi.


I agree with this. Last season was an odd Olympic season in that I felt that a lot of big names had had better material earlier in the quad that would have served them better than their Olympic season programs. Wagner has stronger FS's in 2012 and 2013 and made a smart choice.. S/S had stronger programs almost the entire quad- going back to Pink Panther was smart but I was hoping they'd ressurect Pina too but scrapping 2 programs would have made them look like they were hitting the panic button. And I wanted Tessa and Scott to ditch Seasons for Carmen or even Hip Hip Chin Chin which never got a full season- although I suppose the latter wasn't really an Olympic moment program. I think in the case of Tessa and Scott, they knew Seasons had issues but scrapping would it have been like an admission that they had fallen behind Davis & White and were scrambling. In the end, they did the best they could and the performance in Sochi was by far its best outing.
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
I would get bored having to do the same music and choreo for two years, but that is just me. :)

I remember whenever we had the thread after Worlds about the 'Casual Fan' and someone mentioned their friend was a casual fan and asked the fact that skaters do the same program all year long. I think it would hurt the fanbase if we started seeing a lot of skaters repeat music.
 

uhh

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
I prefer not to see skaters reuse programs, & I do find situations like Chan's a little ridiculous - yes he has complex choreography & transitions, but so do Takahashi or Abbott & recently Machida, and they for the most part have had new programs every year. However, choreographers are expensive, & that explains why sometimes skaters don't change their programs. Brezina for example said he reused his free skate in 2011-12 and 2012-13 so he would have the money for a good choreographer for the Olympic season instead. That kind of consideration is more understandable for me than the rationale for Chan not changing his program.
 

Brenda

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
I prefer not to see skaters reuse programs, & I do find situations like Chan's a little ridiculous - yes he has complex choreography & transitions, but so do Takahashi or Abbott & recently Machida, and they for the most part have had new programs every year. However, choreographers are expensive, & that explains why sometimes skaters don't change their programs. Brezina for example said he reused his free skate in 2011-12 and 2012-13 so he would have the money for a good choreographer for the Olympic season instead. That kind of consideration is more understandable for me than the rationale for Chan not changing his program.

Chan keeping Take Five was more than a little ridiculous. He had a dream performance at 2011 Worlds, even getting a couple 10.00s. The following season, the only change he made was switching a flip to a lutz, the rest of the choreography was the same. We would expect an entire second season of clean performances, wouldn't we? Yet the only time he performed it cleanly the second season was at Canadian Nationals; he made mistakes at both his Grands Prix, the GPF, Four Continents, and Worlds. :scratch:
 

Amei

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
I prefer not to see skaters reuse programs, & I do find situations like Chan's a little ridiculous - yes he has complex choreography & transitions, but so do Takahashi or Abbott & recently Machida, and they for the most part have had new programs every year. However, choreographers are expensive, & that explains why sometimes skaters don't change their programs. Brezina for example said he reused his free skate in 2011-12 and 2012-13 so he would have the money for a good choreographer for the Olympic season instead. That kind of consideration is more understandable for me than the rationale for Chan not changing his program.

Good points, and what about pairs & ice dancers, then you can add the excuse that it's 2 people doing choreography in sync with each other for 'reasons' to reuse a program.
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
It really depends on the reasons they would bring them back: nostalgic value or emotional resonance, in cases like Mao's using her old SP this season as a tribute to her mother comes to mind.

But I think in some circumstances I have no problems bringing them back if the skaters feel they haven't used the program much. Yuko & Sasha used their beautiful Clair de Lune for two years, but part of that was because in the first year they missed their first GP assignment and thus could not qualify for the GPF, meaning that's two fewer tournaments they could have used it. The program was a work of art and is one of my faves. Another is Caro's Bolero, which she used only four times competitively (once was at Nationals) in 2012/13 and didn't really skate to perfection until her FS in Sochi. And there's the case of B/S, who received very polarizing reviews for their bizarre Four Seasons over the GP series and reverted to their (infinitely better) "Insanity" routine from the previous year.

That being said, it puzzled me that Chan didn't come up with something more innovative or new for either programs during the Olympic year. That was disappointing to me. And then Petrenko used the same program forever. When that is done more than once, I would simply think that the skater and / or choreographer either didn't have the funds to put something new together (doesn't it cost $10K for a new program?), or they had run out of ideas.

Sometimes, they may do it because they're guaranteed crowd-pleasers. Prime examples are Joubert's Matrix and Plushy's "Best of Plushenko" FS in Sochi. Admittedly I never get tired of either!

On the flip side, there are the programs which are underused or performed in a major tournament just once. Two prime examples are Yuna Kim's "Homage to Korea" FS and this past season's SP and FS, which she only really got to perform in Sochi. It would have been lovely to see them more than once.
 

skatedreamer

Medalist
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Country
United-States
I don't think it's unfair at all. For example, this year I was hoping Artur would re-use his programs because I thought that maybe if he didn't have to worry about that, more focus could be put on fixing his issues. (Then he went and changed coaches and threw that theory out the window.) If a skater is not happy with their performances of one program, why shouldn't they be able to keep it for another year? Joshua never had the magic moment that Schindler's List deserved, so why not bring it again and make it shine?

I forgot that everyone has the option to re-use programs. Since that's the case, it doesn't seem as inequitable to me as it did at first but re-cycling still seems like it creates a head start for those who do it.

Agree completely re: re-cycling so you can refine/perfect a program.
 

surimi

Onward and forward, Sota!
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Because a lot of skaters just change the music/costume and add some arm moves and final pose, [...]

I find that hard to believe, especially in ice dance and with programs vastly different in theme and pace, but since I'm not well versed in these things, I'll settle for a :confused2:
 

Anastasi14

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
I find that hard to believe, especially in ice dance and with programs vastly different in theme and pace, but since I'm not well versed in these things, I'll settle for a :confused2:

I was talking mostly about singles and pairs, not about dancers. Because ice dances it's a bit different discipline and it's very rare when a dancing pair returns to the old dance.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Doesn't a "recycled" program give a skater an advantage (maybe an unfair one) over those who are using new material?

Yes, using a familiar program gives a skater an advantage over using an unfamiliar one.

But it's hard to consider that advantage unfair or something that needs to be legislated in the rules, especially since every skater in the same event has the same options to keep old programs or use new ones.

However, in a competition situation where the playing field is supposed to be level, it seems like everyone should be starting from more or less the same point (allowing for experience, skills, etc.).

Except there are so many other factors that make the playing field uneven that requiring new programs every year might actually increase rather than decrease any unfairness.

Doesn't a skater who can afford to work with master choreographers or whose technical coach also happens to be great at choreography have an advantage over a skater who has limited funds, maybe trains in an isolated location where just getting to the same city as a professional choreographer would cost thousands of dollars before they even pay the choreographer's fee?

Doesn't a skater who has had plenty of chances to compete in front of judges have an advantage over skaters who missed most of a season because of injury, sitting out for nationality reasons or conflicts with their federation or missing/skating poorly at the one competition needed to qualify for additional assignments?

Doesn't a skater who feels an emotional connection to his/her music have an advantage over a skater who was given music that proves difficult to relate or skate to?

A skater with a complex program may have an advantage with the judges when they can actually skate it as designed, which takes time, but the skater with a simplistic program may have an advantage in skating clean earlier in the life of that program.

I think everything depends on a quality of the program. Because a lot of skaters just change the music/costume and add some arm moves and final pose, but if you compare the new program to the old ones you will find that it's almost the same program and you can even see the same parts with the same steps/transitions/moves etc. Can we really call it a new program? But yes, the music will be new :)In this case i don't think that creating of such "new" program is much more difficult than keeping the old one.

Exactly! What makes a program new? To the casual viewer, new music and new costume but the exact same choreography except some timing subtleties will look more different than same music, same costume, and completely different choreography -- because they tweaked the same program significantly over the year(s), or made a whole new program designed for new rules and new skill level using music they had used before and always liked. Yet the latter would be much more challenging to the skater.

I was talking mostly about singles and pairs, not about dancers. Because ice dances it's a bit different discipline and it's very rare when a dancing pair returns to the old dance.

If there are rule changes from year to year, then choreography may need to change to adapt to new requirements. Which is why we would rarely see a recycled original dance/short dance. There have been a few examples of reused free dances I can think of from the 1990s; not sure about IJS era
 

Anastasi14

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
If there are rule changes from year to year, then choreography may need to change to adapt to new requirements. Which is why we would rarely see a recycled original dance/short dance. There have been a few examples of reused free dances I can think of from the 1990s; not sure about IJS era

Except BS, the only ones who came to my mind is PB with their Circus.
 

FireOn

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 21, 2014
The endless Four Seasons free program by tikhs.
They performed this free program in 4 World Championships (99, 00, 01 and 06:eek:hwell:)
 
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