Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 144

Thread: Hersh: In figure skating, same old, same old

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,555
    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    What does that word mean?
    'Kowtow' comes from the Chinese and literally means kneeling on the ground with your head pressed to the floor. It is a sign of great respect in ancient Asian cultures, usually performed by the commoner to the lord, the court official to the emperor, or sometimes when pleading or thanking someone for something momentous. Hersh probably means it as "great subservience," but considering he's referring to Korea, I think the historical/cultural connotations are... quite unfortunate, at best.

    Frankly, this article is the "same old, same old" he's accusing figure skating of being. It's shoddily written, doesn't offer anything new (and thus, he doesn't even bother to argue anything since it's so "self-evident"), and seemingly written in complete rage without any kind of use of... I dunno, his brain, maybe? Just because he has a few correct points doesn't mean this type of journalism should be encouraged (other sports having shoddy journalism isn't an excuse--that's like saying "every country cheats so why not us? ).

  2. #17
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    2,324
    Trying to get rid of anonymous judging is bogus anyways. Until the scandal in 2002 everyone knew who the judges were and it still didn't keep them from cheating and being corrupt. This sport has been corrupt since the Sonja Henie days and probably before even then.

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    219
    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    This. As well as the fact that Hersch's writing about skating is no different than any sports columnist's writing about anything. I hope the people who find him so offensive are not college football fans. If they read those columnists, they might rip their pearl strands from all the clutching and I doubt there are enough hankies to console them.
    Pearl-clutching skating fans need to keep in mind that skating is a sport and skaters are athletes, not children in need of protecting. We don't pearl-clutch over Lebron James or Richard Sherman, they can take care of themselves. And so can most skaters.

  4. #19
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    3,197
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    'Kowtow' comes from the Chinese and literally means kneeling on the ground with your head pressed to the floor. It is a sign of great respect in ancient Asian cultures, usually performed by the commoner to the lord, the court official to the emperor, or sometimes when pleading or thanking someone for something momentous. Hersh probably means it as "great subservience," but considering he's referring to Korea, I think the historical/cultural connotations are... quite unfortunate, at best.
    Yeah I got the meaning.

    Frankly, this article is the "same old, same old" he's accusing figure skating of being. It's shoddily written, doesn't offer anything new (and thus, he doesn't even bother to argue anything since it's so "self-evident"), and seemingly written in complete rage without any kind of use of... I dunno, his brain, maybe? Just because he has a few correct points doesn't mean this type of journalism should be encouraged (other sports having shoddy journalism isn't an excuse--that's like saying "every country cheats so why not us? ).
    This.

    I fully agree, and it's not that I find his article offensive towards anyone (maybe towards Korea as you said) but it's poor, as I said a snoozefest.
    Oh well, I suppose he has to write about something even when he has nothing new to say.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    1,258
    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05 View Post
    This. As well as the fact that Hersch's writing about skating is no different than any sports columnist's writing about anything. I hope the people who find him so offensive are not college football fans. If they read those columnists, they might rip their pearl strands from all the clutching and I doubt there are enough hankies to console them.
    Other sports columnists generate plenty of ire. Maybe not the pearl clutching kind, but I'm sure their email inboxes are filled with expletives. And Hersh is different because he is so self-congratulatory. There is too much Hersh in his writing and not enough knowledge.

  6. #21
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    3,197
    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    And Hersh is different because he is so self-congratulatory. There is too much Hersh in his writing and not enough knowledge.

  7. #22
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    911
    Please. I've read a lot, lot worse in sports journalism and gossip columns.
    To quote Dustin Hoffman's character in Wag the Dog: "this is nothing".

  8. #23
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Trying to get rid of anonymous judging is bogus anyways. Until the scandal in 2002 everyone knew who the judges were and it still didn't keep them from cheating and being corrupt. This sport has been corrupt since the Sonja Henie days and probably before even then.
    to be fair every sports organization is corrupt anyway... but in figure skating it is more in your face and no one gives a ****.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-24-2014 at 04:01 PM.

  9. #24
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,192
    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Trying to get rid of anonymous judging is bogus anyways. Until the scandal in 2002 everyone knew who the judges were and it still didn't keep them from cheating and being corrupt. This sport has been corrupt since the Sonja Henie days and probably before even then.
    True. Still…the current situation brings its own set of special problems. There is a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the sport. This increases the power of the three-person technical panel, vis-a-vis the nine-person panel of judges. Put two like-minded people on the tech panel and that's that.

    In an add-up-the-points system of scoring, a dedicated minority of judges can easily out-point an honest and uninvested majority.

    Throw in anonymity and the ISU does not even need to acknowledge, much less respond to, fan dissatisfaction.

  10. #25
    축복, 축도 RABID's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    458
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    True. Still…the current situation brings its own set of special problems. There is a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the sport. This increases the power of the three-person technical panel, vis-a-vis the nine-person panel of judges. Put two like-minded people on the tech panel and that's that.

    In an add-up-the-points system of scoring, a dedicated minority of judges can easily out-point an honest and uninvested majority.

    Throw in anonymity and the ISU does not even need to acknowledge, much less respond to, fan dissatisfaction.
    Are there anymore "sub-panels" to offset this? This sounds unnecessarily complicated and obviously corrupt.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,192
    Quote Originally Posted by RABID View Post
    Are there anymore "sub-panels" to offset this? This sounds unnecessarily complicated and obviously corrupt.
    I think there are two questions. First, does the current method for determining the winner make it easier than ever for someone to cheat and get away with it?

    But there is another question that applies to judged sports in general. Assume for a moment that all judges are honest, unbiased and competent. Here are the scores (out of ten points maximum) given by nine judges (in an admittedly artificially extreme example). Who should win, skater A or skater B?

    Skater A: 6 6 6 6 6 3 3 3 3
    Skater B: 5 5 5 5 5 8 8 8 8

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think there are two questions. First, does the current method for determining the winner make it easier than ever for someone to cheat and get away with it?

    But there is another question that applies to judged sports in general. Assume for a moment that all judges are honest, unbiased and competent. Here are the scores (out of ten points maximum) given by nine judges (in an admittedly artificially extreme example). Who should win, skater A or skater B?

    Skater A: 6 6 6 6 6 3 3 3 3
    Skater B: 5 5 5 5 5 8 8 8 8
    Under the ordinal system such as the 6.0, Skater A wins because more judges placed him/her over Skater B.

    Under the point system under which the highest and the lowest scores are discarded, Skater B wins with a higher total score (44 vs 33) despite having more points thrown out (13 vs 9 for Skater A)

    The political voting system by district is similar to the 6.0 in that the smallest majority elects the representative in a district. A party or a president may be elected with a much smaller number of total votes than the defeated opponent party or candidate.

    Maybe that is why the Americans are so attached to the 6.0.

  13. #28
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    558
    Quote Originally Posted by anyanka View Post
    Please. I've read a lot, lot worse in sports journalism and gossip columns.
    To quote Dustin Hoffman's character in Wag the Dog: "this is nothing".
    Yep. Columnists that write about football fancy themselves better coaches than the coaches. Hersch is an amateur by comparison.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,192
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Under the ordinal system such as the 6.0, Skater A wins because more judges placed him/her over Skater B.

    Under the point system under which the highest and the lowest scores are discarded, Skater B wins with a higher total score (44 vs 33) despite having more points thrown out (13 vs 9 for Skater A)
    And so…which is better, in your opinion?

    The political voting system by district is similar to the 6.0 in that the smallest majority elects the representative in a district. A party or a president may be elected with a much smaller number of total votes than the defeated opponent party or candidate.
    No, I don't think so. There were nine voters and two candidates. Five of the nine voters voted for skater A. That seems pretty straightforward.

    The thing is, those five were not passionate about their choice, while the other four were. I think a better analogy to American politics would be the primary system. A small but enthusiastic minority of extremists can dictate the party's nominee. That is why we have the spectacle of candidates running as fringe crazies in the primaries, only to rush headlong toward moderation and the middle ground in the general election.

    Maybe that is why the Americans are so attached to the 6.0.
    I can't speak for all Americans , but to me the real different does not have much to do with voting and scoring schemes, with cheating judges, or any of the rest of it. In my opinion the difference is that CoP is good for the participants -- skaters, parents, coaches, judges, officials -- while 6.0 was better for the fans (more-pleasing programs, more-satisfying performances). In numerous on-line discussions, the ever-patient GKelly has convinced me that skating ought to be for the skaters, especially the youngsters who never make it to TV. So be it.

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    And so…which is better, in your opinion?
    I think it's up the skaters (and their support teams) to adapt to the prevailing system if they want to win. Personally, I think a scoring system with clear rules and guidelines is better for everyone involved.

    Under the 6.0, fans don't get to see the actual "degrees of enthusiasm" from the judges but only the decided placements so maybe there wouldn't be the kind of controversy or debate as would be if the scores are displayed as you did them. Doesn't mean there would not be controversy. After all...........

    Quote Originally Posted by louisa05
    Yep. Columnists that write about football fancy themselves better coaches than the coaches.
    ..........fans fancy themselves best columnists/judges/tech panelists/coaches/choreographers/ISU President/federation officials. They also seem to think they are the only legitimate pressure judges should bend to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    No, I don't think so. There were nine voters and two candidates. Five of the nine voters voted for skater A. That seems pretty straightforward.
    In voting, there is only a choice, no degree of support. I am thinking in terms of districts. A party or a presidential candidate may win certain districts with a minimal majority ending up with a higher number of districts which determines the win while the other party or candidate may have land slide wins in fewer districts, losing despite many more total votes/supporters, with "wasted" votes by real people, real supporters. Like Skater A winning with higher number of judges (districts) and Skater B losing with "wasted" scores (votes).

    I can't speak for all Americans , but to me the real different does not have much to do with voting and scoring schemes, with cheating judges, or any of the rest of it. In my opinion the difference is that CoP is good for the participants -- skaters, parents, coaches, judges, officials -- while 6.0 was better for the fans (more-pleasing programs, more-satisfying performances). In numerous on-line discussions, the ever-patient GKelly has convinced me that skating ought to be for the skaters, especially the youngsters who never make it to TV. So be it
    I agree that the COP, though not perfect and still evolving, is better for the participants. As for the fans, they are divided, with different reasons and opinions. For some, COP becomes the dumping grounds for frustrations and displeasure with the results as well as the governing system even if the real causes are extrinsic of the scoring system.

Page 2 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •