Hersh: In figure skating, same old, same old | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Hersh: In figure skating, same old, same old

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Please. I've read a lot, lot worse in sports journalism and gossip columns.
To quote Dustin Hoffman's character in Wag the Dog: "this is nothing".
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Trying to get rid of anonymous judging is bogus anyways. Until the scandal in 2002 everyone knew who the judges were and it still didn't keep them from cheating and being corrupt. This sport has been corrupt since the Sonja Henie days and probably before even then.

to be fair every sports organization is corrupt anyway... but in figure skating it is more in your face and no one gives a ****.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Trying to get rid of anonymous judging is bogus anyways. Until the scandal in 2002 everyone knew who the judges were and it still didn't keep them from cheating and being corrupt. This sport has been corrupt since the Sonja Henie days and probably before even then.

True. Still…the current situation brings its own set of special problems. There is a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the sport. This increases the power of the three-person technical panel, vis-a-vis the nine-person panel of judges. Put two like-minded people on the tech panel and that's that.

In an add-up-the-points system of scoring, a dedicated minority of judges can easily out-point an honest and uninvested majority.

Throw in anonymity and the ISU does not even need to acknowledge, much less respond to, fan dissatisfaction.
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
True. Still…the current situation brings its own set of special problems. There is a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the sport. This increases the power of the three-person technical panel, vis-a-vis the nine-person panel of judges. Put two like-minded people on the tech panel and that's that.

In an add-up-the-points system of scoring, a dedicated minority of judges can easily out-point an honest and uninvested majority.

Throw in anonymity and the ISU does not even need to acknowledge, much less respond to, fan dissatisfaction.

Are there anymore "sub-panels" to offset this? This sounds unnecessarily complicated and obviously corrupt.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Are there anymore "sub-panels" to offset this? This sounds unnecessarily complicated and obviously corrupt.

I think there are two questions. First, does the current method for determining the winner make it easier than ever for someone to cheat and get away with it?

But there is another question that applies to judged sports in general. Assume for a moment that all judges are honest, unbiased and competent. Here are the scores (out of ten points maximum) given by nine judges (in an admittedly artificially extreme example). Who should win, skater A or skater B?

Skater A: 6 6 6 6 6 3 3 3 3
Skater B: 5 5 5 5 5 8 8 8 8
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I think there are two questions. First, does the current method for determining the winner make it easier than ever for someone to cheat and get away with it?

But there is another question that applies to judged sports in general. Assume for a moment that all judges are honest, unbiased and competent. Here are the scores (out of ten points maximum) given by nine judges (in an admittedly artificially extreme example). Who should win, skater A or skater B?

Skater A: 6 6 6 6 6 3 3 3 3
Skater B: 5 5 5 5 5 8 8 8 8

Under the ordinal system such as the 6.0, Skater A wins because more judges placed him/her over Skater B.

Under the point system under which the highest and the lowest scores are discarded, Skater B wins with a higher total score (44 vs 33) despite having more points thrown out (13 vs 9 for Skater A)

The political voting system by district is similar to the 6.0 in that the smallest majority elects the representative in a district. A party or a president may be elected with a much smaller number of total votes than the defeated opponent party or candidate.

Maybe that is why the Americans are so attached to the 6.0.
 

louisa05

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Please. I've read a lot, lot worse in sports journalism and gossip columns.
To quote Dustin Hoffman's character in Wag the Dog: "this is nothing".

Yep. Columnists that write about football fancy themselves better coaches than the coaches. Hersch is an amateur by comparison.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Under the ordinal system such as the 6.0, Skater A wins because more judges placed him/her over Skater B.

Under the point system under which the highest and the lowest scores are discarded, Skater B wins with a higher total score (44 vs 33) despite having more points thrown out (13 vs 9 for Skater A)

And so…which is better, in your opinion?

The political voting system by district is similar to the 6.0 in that the smallest majority elects the representative in a district. A party or a president may be elected with a much smaller number of total votes than the defeated opponent party or candidate.

No, I don't think so. There were nine voters and two candidates. Five of the nine voters voted for skater A. That seems pretty straightforward.

The thing is, those five were not passionate about their choice, while the other four were. I think a better analogy to American politics would be the primary system. A small but enthusiastic minority of extremists can dictate the party's nominee. That is why we have the spectacle of candidates running as fringe crazies in the primaries, only to rush headlong toward moderation and the middle ground in the general election. :yes:

Maybe that is why the Americans are so attached to the 6.0.

I can't speak for all Americans ;) , but to me the real different does not have much to do with voting and scoring schemes, with cheating judges, or any of the rest of it. In my opinion the difference is that CoP is good for the participants -- skaters, parents, coaches, judges, officials -- while 6.0 was better for the fans (more-pleasing programs, more-satisfying performances). In numerous on-line discussions, the ever-patient GKelly :rock: has convinced me that skating ought to be for the skaters, especially the youngsters who never make it to TV. So be it.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
And so…which is better, in your opinion?

I think it's up the skaters (and their support teams) to adapt to the prevailing system if they want to win. Personally, I think a scoring system with clear rules and guidelines is better for everyone involved.

Under the 6.0, fans don't get to see the actual "degrees of enthusiasm" from the judges but only the decided placements so maybe there wouldn't be the kind of controversy or debate as would be if the scores are displayed as you did them. Doesn't mean there would not be controversy. After all...........

louisa05 said:
Yep. Columnists that write about football fancy themselves better coaches than the coaches.

..........fans fancy themselves best columnists/judges/tech panelists/coaches/choreographers/ISU President/federation officials. They also seem to think they are the only legitimate pressure judges should bend to.

Mathman said:
No, I don't think so. There were nine voters and two candidates. Five of the nine voters voted for skater A. That seems pretty straightforward.

In voting, there is only a choice, no degree of support. I am thinking in terms of districts. A party or a presidential candidate may win certain districts with a minimal majority ending up with a higher number of districts which determines the win while the other party or candidate may have land slide wins in fewer districts, losing despite many more total votes/supporters, with "wasted" votes by real people, real supporters. Like Skater A winning with higher number of judges (districts) and Skater B losing with "wasted" scores (votes).

I can't speak for all Americans ;) , but to me the real different does not have much to do with voting and scoring schemes, with cheating judges, or any of the rest of it. In my opinion the difference is that CoP is good for the participants -- skaters, parents, coaches, judges, officials -- while 6.0 was better for the fans (more-pleasing programs, more-satisfying performances). In numerous on-line discussions, the ever-patient GKelly :rock: has convinced me that skating ought to be for the skaters, especially the youngsters who never make it to TV. So be it

I agree that the COP, though not perfect and still evolving, is better for the participants. As for the fans, they are divided, with different reasons and opinions. For some, COP becomes the dumping grounds for frustrations and displeasure with the results as well as the governing system even if the real causes are extrinsic of the scoring system.
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
I tend to agree with him. The use of kowtow is an unfortunate choice, bringing with it a slew of colonial associations, but on the whole his criticisms are not unfair. Cinquatta has abused his privilege and power; anonymous judging is indefensible; judges with conflict of interest should not be on panels deciding the most prestigious prizes in the sport; there's no reason why all program lengths should not be the same.

It is beyond tiresome that every time someone points these problems out, he/she/they are accused of Russia bashing by someone on here. Beyond tiresome.

I agree with this. So well said, Weakankles.

I get tired of the apologists who deny that anything is wrong and cannot see what most people see and why the sport is thought "corrupt" to the point of being beyond salvation or worth watching in North America. The defenders can defend what is going on all they want. The vast majority of people in the public are not listening anymore. People have generally voted on the issue by disregarding figure skating as a sport.

For anyone who can't figure out that North American money is not going to be flowing anytime soon into figure skating, just read the article. Like it or lump it, most people agree with the drift of what Hersh has written and are beyond fed up. Consider it as a fact that people generally think that way even if you disagree with what they agree with.

The only people left watching this sport are either 1) the few diehards who appreciate the skates and can separate the scores from the skates, or 2) the apologists who want the status quo and say that the scores are legitimate, and who have no problem with the corruption. (Sorry, not sorry.)

The only upside for this is that if you come to the skating events in North America, it won't be difficult to get tickets. The downside is that you need be sure to buy a ticket because you won't be watching it live on television. If you want to know why, read the Hersh article. It sets out the reason why people here are en masse voting with their pocket books with an empathic "THUMBS DOWN". It lists the main reasons why the sport cannot pass the smell test.

For those who think that anonymous judging is not an issue, the problem that many people have with that is that without transparency, no one is going to believe anything that the ISU does or says. That may surprise the apologists but it should not surprise anyone. Credibility has to be seen through credible conduct not promised on the basis of hidden actions. I trust someone as being honest who I see doing an honest act, not on the basis of speculation or on the basis of what Cinquanta says. Judges have to be answerable to the public, not just to themselves personally.

Without transparency, there is no way to rebut a reasonable presumption that the scoring is corrupt.

Here is a newsflash for the apologists: If the sport is going to ever be flush with cash again, it has to improve its reputation in North America. But instead of improving its reputation, IT IS AND CONTINUES TO LOSE GROUND IN NORTH AMERICA ON THE BASIS OF BEING CORRUPT. What happened at the Olympics has had a negative effect. (For those who disagree about the effect of the Olympics on the reputation of the sport, I want to smoke whatever they are smoking.) And for those who don't like how the North Americans are reacting en masse, most North Americans don't care. They are not watching anymore and they are not going to pay for it anymore.

Fix the sport. Get rid of Cinquanta, get rid of anonymous judging, and get rid of judges at events where there is a conflict of interest. Start with what is obvious to everyone except the wilfully blind. Or don't. Other than the few diehards (of which I am one), most people have moved on and don't expect any changes to be made ever. Those who like the sport the way that it is, well basically it is becoming all yours and yours alone. Well done.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think it's up the skaters (and their support teams) to adapt to the prevailing system if they want to win. Personally, I think a scoring system with clear rules and guidelines is better for everyone involved.

Which system do you believe has the clearer rules and guidelines?

I agree that the COP, though not perfect and still evolving, is better for the participants. As for the fans, they are divided, with different reasons and opinions. For some, COP becomes the dumping grounds for frustrations and displeasure with the results as well as the governing system even if the real causes are extrinsic of the scoring

Personally, I think the biggest difference is between fans who think that the performances we are seeing under the IJS are worse than the performances that we saw under the old system, and those who don't think that. Some fans say Hanyu was great at Sochi -- look at all the CoP points he got! Others say, the boy fell down twice (!) and won only because no one else did any better.

Yes, Yuzuru and the others "adapted to the prevailing system." The question remains, is this good or bad?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Speaking of Hersh, here is an article by his Russian-German counterpart, the ever-entertaining Artur Werner.

http://www.wer-art.com/news/273.html

About anonymous judging, Werner makes the clever observation that Mrs. S. kind of gave up her own anonymity (to urbi et orbi :) ) in terms of which judge supported which skater by her actions immediately following the ladies free program at Sochi. He then proceeds to spin a tale about a meeting in Moscow where Mr. Piseev bullied representatives from former SSRs to vote down the proposal to eliminate anonymous judging leaving Russia itself on the side of the angles.

Most interesting, though, is Mr. Werner's account of a challenge based on European Union age-discrimination laws that could allow Mr. Cinquanta to serve as ISU president forever, or at least well past the ISU Constitution's requirement that he step down in 2014 -- oops, I mean 2016 (doggone that pesky constitution anyway).

Thanks to Vialiakid for posting this on FSU.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
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Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Is it true that North Korea got a vote as the article claims and they too voted against anonymous judging? That can't be right can it?

Re: Hersh

When Skate America comes to your community and you publicly trash that sport soon after tickets go on sale...I'm just not sure you have your communities best interests in mind. It's not like he shed any light on the situation or raised any new pressing matters so why rant like this? I don't even neccasarily disagree but this just sits funny with me for some reason. How much money do you suppose he makes off of the sport vs how much he puts into it? That would be a more interesting read IMO.
 

Alain

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 28, 2014
Speaking of Hersh, here is an article by his Russian-German counterpart, the ever-entertaining Artur Werner.

http://www.wer-art.com/news/273.html

About anonymous judging, Werner makes the clever observation that Mrs. S. kind of gave up her own anonymity (to urbi et orbi :) ) in terms of which judge supported which skater by her actions immediately following the ladies free program at Sochi. He then proceeds to spin a tale about a meeting in Moscow where Mr. Piseev bullied representatives from former SSRs to vote down the proposal to eliminate anonymous judging leaving Russia itself on the side of the angles.

Most interesting, though, is Mr. Werner's account of a challenge based on European Union age-discrimination laws that could allow Mr. Cinquanta to serve as ISU president forever, or at least well past the ISU Constitution's requirement that he step down in 2014 -- oops, I mean 2016 (doggone that pesky constitution anyway).

Thanks to Vialiakid for posting this on FSU.
I still don't get why you people keep watching this sport if it sucks that much.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
About anonymous judging, Werner makes the clever observation that Mrs. S. kind of gave up her own anonymity (to urbi et orbi :) ) in terms of which judge supported which skater by her actions immediately following the ladies free program at Sochi.

He's speaking about Alla? What's clever about that?
Does anyone think that an italian judge - but you may take any nationality as an example - would support a Korean, Russian, Japanese or American skater with Kostner competing, whether she hugs her ot not? :rolleye:


I still don't get why you people keep watching this sport if it sucks that much.

Good question. :biggrin:
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Here is a newsflash for the apologists: If the sport is going to ever be flush with cash again, it has to improve its reputation in North America. But instead of improving its reputation, IT IS AND CONTINUES TO LOSE GROUND IN NORTH AMERICA ON THE BASIS OF BEING CORRUPT. What happened at the Olympics has had a negative effect. (For those who disagree about the effect of the Olympics on the reputation of the sport, I want to smoke whatever they are smoking.) And for those who don't like how the North Americans are reacting en masse, most North Americans don't care. They are not watching anymore and they are not going to pay for it anymore.

Are you really suggesting that the rest of the world is corrupt and North America is the salvation because the pure and honest are all there?

You better gett-off the podium you've build up there. :sarcasm:

There are no apologists here towards ISU or Cinquanta. Just people who call things with their name: Hypocrisy and double standarts.
 

phaeljones

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Are you really suggesting that the rest of the world is corrupt and North America is the salvation because the pure and honest are all there?

You better gett-off the podium you've build up there. :sarcasm:

There are no apologists here towards ISU or Cinquanta. Just people who call things with their name: Hypocrisy and double standarts.

I did not say what you say I said. Read it in the context that it was written. The comparison you make between North Americans and the rest of the world is not one that I made. You made it. Your issue, not mine.

Seriously, we need to all listen to each other better.

My comment focussed on what people are thinking in North America, NOT on the basis of judgment but on the basis of reality. Period. I did not say it was right or wrong, but I did say what has to be done to fix the situation. I also wrote that it is important to the sport that the situation be fixed because it is a market that the sport cannot afford to ignore. What I wrote was that the North American audience has abandoned the sport and will continue to do so until ISU cleans up its act and the reputation of the sport is raised. The comments from the apologists that reforms are not required just are not selling here. For those who don't like that, people here don't care anymore. Call North Americans whatever you want, they don't care about that either. Generally, the broader North American audience (which is different than the more in-depth kind of fan who reads and contributes to this site) is past caring now. This is a reality that has to be addressed by better listening and discussion by people still within the sport, not by dismissive sarcasm.

North America is a big market. Listen to the concerns that North Americans have or don't. Meet their concerns or don't. Separating the North American market from Figure Skating, however, is very bad for the sport. And that is what has happened: FACT.
 

[email protected]

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Mar 26, 2014
Separating the North American market from Figure Skating, however, is very bad for the sport. And that is what has happened: FACT.

My guess, is that North America needs to boost the pipeline of quality skaters - that would do much better for not separating the North American market from Figure Skating than anything else. Especially knowing that all major recent "injustice" did not concern your skaters. People don't care just because there are very few around to care of. They are all in Asia or Russia these days. That's the main problem - no money to support young skaters, no role models, etc. with the so-called corruption being a minor factor. Look at the alpine snowboarding in the U.S. where no one ever spoke of corruption. Why would Vic Wild abandon "the American dream" and become a citizen of Russia? The only true answer - is to continue with the sport he loves and to get 2 OGM. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702304899704579389243585521738.html
 
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