Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 144

Thread: Hersh: In figure skating, same old, same old

  1. #61
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    1,852
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I don't have any issues with Hersh being critical. But I have massive issues with him not being constructive. Readers deserve better quality articles from paid journalists, whether they love/hate/don't care about figure skating.
    This attitude just baffles me. I was in a poetry workshop with someone with a similar attitude: if you can't offer positive encouragement then say nothing at all. And you know what happened when a good many of the people in that workshop did that? The quality of the writing went downhill at a rate that would be envied by Olympic skiers.

  2. #62
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,456
    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    This attitude just baffles me. I was in a poetry workshop with someone with a similar attitude: if you can't offer positive encouragement then say nothing at all. And you know what happened when a good many of the people in that workshop did that? The quality of the writing went downhill at a rate that would be envied by Olympic skiers.
    Did you even read what I wrote? I said "I don't have any issues with Hersh being critical." Where in my post did I mention "positive encouragement"?

    If we want to take the poetry workshop analogy, Hersh is basically the guy who says, "Your poetry sucks." After ten guys before him already said the same thing. Okay. Does that help anyone improve their poetry? Wait, he's a paid, professional journalist. So, it's like you sent your manuscript to someone who charged a fee for editing, and the only feedback you got was "Your poetry sucks." (I'd be equally pissed if the feedback were, "Your poetry rocks," btw).

  3. #63
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,212
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I don't have any issues with Hersh being critical. But I have massive issues with him not being constructive. Readers deserve better quality articles from paid journalists, whether they love/hate/don't care about figure skating.
    Have you ever been asked to give constructive criticism? What happens when you give it, and the person comes back with the exact same thing and tells you to give more constructive criticism? So you do, and then they come back with the exact same problems. And then they keep asking without ever fixing anything, over and over again.

    That was Hersh about 5 years ago. The problem isn't the critic ... it's the product that sucks and never gets better.

  4. #64
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,212
    Just to finish up that point on constructive criticism...

    The purpose of constructive criticism is to offer feedback for improvement. The ISU has shown they are not interested in improvement. The people in charge now are interested in breaking their own constitution to stay in power; to keep power by any means necessary; and to use that power to receive favors and benefits that may or may not be public information.

    Because the ISU has been democratically elected by members of the figure skating community, it can be stated with absolute certainty that the figure skating community itself is not interested in improving the sport. You can see that by some posts on these forums, and by the votes that have happened recently with various federations and the ISU. Since that is the case, figure skating deserves ridicule, not anything that may be construed as constructive criticism, anymore.

    People who like figure skating probably don't want to hear that, but it's the cold and hard truth.

  5. #65
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,102
    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    J]Because the ISU has been democratically elected by members of the figure skating community, …
    I am not so sure about that. I think the ISU was established when a few old cronies got together to regulate skating competitions in the 1800s, and nothing much has changed since then. The "members of the figure skating community" do not get to vote on anything or have much input on decisions of the ISU. I suppose the grass roots could try to exert influence through their national federations, but most of those organizations are "democratically challenged" as well.

  6. #66
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    815
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I suppose the grass roots could try to exert influence through their national federations, but most of those organizations are "democratically challenged" as well.
    To break the logjam, what do you think would need to happen?

  7. #67
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,456
    Because the ISU has been democratically elected by members of the figure skating community, it can be stated with absolute certainty that the figure skating community itself is not interested in improving the sport.
    Pretty gross generalization there.

    In the sense though, I think you're right. Which is why I'm not sure figure skating's decline in North America had anything to do with judges/system/corruption. It's simply due to the lack of stars. Therefore, I'm not sure if we can "save" figure skating. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, of course, but we can get all the best judges/system you want, and figure skating could still be nowhere in NA as long as the top contenders are from Japan/Russia/Korea/whatever.

  8. #68
    Yulia forver! I'm on team dumped Ice Dance. Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    2,867
    Quote Originally Posted by phaeljones View Post
    I did not say what you say I said. Read it in the context that it was written. The comparison you make between North Americans and the rest of the world is not one that I made. You made it. Your issue, not mine.
    Sorry but what's this suppose to mean?
    If the sport is going to ever be flush with cash again, it has to improve its reputation in North America. But instead of improving its reputation, IT IS AND CONTINUES TO LOSE GROUND IN NORTH AMERICA ON THE BASIS OF BEING CORRUPT

    So FS lose ground in NA on the basis of being corrupt, and as Sandpiper rightly put it, doesn't lose ground in Japan for example because they are fine with corruption?
    I didn't made that, but you are implying it with that comment. Maybe without realizing and not on purpose but you're.
    So yes, I do have an issue with that.

    Seriously, we need to all listen to each other better.
    Yes, let's do, but not with holier-than-thou attitude. I'm not referring to you directly.

    My comment focussed on what people are thinking in North America, NOT on the basis of judgment but on the basis of reality. Period. I did not say it was right or wrong, but I did say what has to be done to fix the situation. I also wrote that it is important to the sport that the situation be fixed because it is a market that the sport cannot afford to ignore. What I wrote was that the North American audience has abandoned the sport and will continue to do so until ISU cleans up its act and the reputation of the sport is raised. The comments from the apologists that reforms are not required just are not selling here. For those who don't like that, people here don't care anymore. Call North Americans whatever you want, they don't care about that either. Generally, the broader North American audience (which is different than the more in-depth kind of fan who reads and contributes to this site) is past caring now. This is a reality that has to be addressed by better listening and discussion by people still within the sport, not by dismissive sarcasm.
    That's fair enough but are you addressing this to us, GS users I mean, or just making a comment in general about ISU without addressing to anyone?
    I'm asking because I've hardly seen anyone here saying that FS doesn't need reforms.
    There are people who are disillusioned maybe and they just don't care anymore, or care less. There are those who try to by more realistic or practical about some issues (Mathman and gkelly comes to my mind right now). There are also a number of people who simply are tired with the argument - which let’s face it, it has become older than the Palestine vs Israel conflict - but no one has denied the problems that this sport has, IMO.

    North America is a big market. Listen to the concerns that North Americans have or don't. Meet their concerns or don't. Separating the North American market from Figure Skating, however, is very bad for the sport. And that is what has happened: FACT
    True. So what do you want us to do about it? What’s the proposal?

    Maybe as samkrut@mail.ru and Sandpiper suggested North America really do need to boost the pipeline of quality skaters in order to bring that market back into skating? I don't know.

    There is also one thing which I honestly often have some difficulty to follow the logic. I really don't know what are the "right" standards for this sport to be called clean?! I mean I know it, in theory, but I see a lot of hypocrisy and a huge effort from the media in creating a narrative here. Maybe this happens because it suits them, their skaters, and therefore their own FED's as well? In part yes, I think, and I say “in part” because I do believe - or do want to believe - that many of those involved with this sport are really genuine. So I absolutely do not want to put them in a sack altogether.

    However, after the 2002 and with the IJS many of the above mentioned seems to be happy. Suddenly FS was clean. This of course as long as their own skaters were winning.
    Canadians were happy with their OGM Ice Dance in Vancouver, and bronze in ladies. USA with the gold in Men, but Russia wasn't. So I guess in 2010 FS was clean for CAN and USA but not for Russia.

    Now, in 2014, the USA wins the Ice Dance in Sochi but this time around the Canadians starts complaining about their Ice Dance team being "robbed" (by the way V&M were my fav. couple). All this of course with the help of the "evil" Russia.
    After all, they are always at the top of the corruption country table, right? It doesn't matter that they had/have one of the greatest school, tradition and some of the best skaters ever produced in the history of this sport. That's just a small detail, so let's move on. The bottom line is that the story out there is; FS is back at being a corrupt sport, again.

    My question is; are we sure that whatever reforms we make our media -who has a huge influence in forming our opinion - people directly involved with this sport and fans will ever call this sport fair and clean? Let’s also not forget that this is a judged sport. People are still discussing over video evidence and pictures, whether it was a real bite or not in the football match 2 days ago at the WC.
    So, whatever changes there might be in FS we will never by fully satisfied. Not all of us anyway.

    We talk about Cinquanta all the time but he is not alone. For me he is just the tip of the iceberg.
    FS is made by the whole community: General Director, Director, Federations, Tech. Specialist, Judges, Coaches, Choreographers, Skaters, parents, media, fans etc., It is never about just one person.

    It actually reminds me about the ex opposition (now government) here in Italy, when fighting against Berlusconi.
    They were so "blind" and "obsessed" with him that all they did was going after Berlusconi, as a single person, without being worried too much about the real issue, which was the Berlusconism that formed a lot of people and a whole new generation.

    You might say: Well, let's start with the head first and then we will see, step by step. I agree.
    All I'm saying though, to use an Italian phrase, is: "do not just look at the small straw, without realizing that there's a big trunk/beam.”

  9. #69
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    2,835
    People who like figure skating probably don't want to hear that, but it's the cold and hard truth.
    And what about the people who are at the rinks up to 10-12 hr days helping, watching, and supporting the next group of skaters to develop. The cold hard truth is most of the skaters I personally work with aren't at all concerned with this debate or what happens at the top events. Our approach is simple. Learn to improve yourself to the highest potential possible and see where it takes you. That is why some people like myself take offense to blank statements like "figure skating is dead" or the worst yet "everyone involved with this sport is only interested in cheating,bribes, back room deals etc. etc. etc. etc.". There are still people, the majority I would say, that are involved with this sport for the love and for the opportunities it presents to grow as an athelete and to develop various skills like dancing, ballet, stamina, and character along the way.... and some really good friends.

    I also think there is a clash between the old way of thinking and the new way. The rules are changing and the sport itself is becoming more sport than show. It won't happen overnight as some people hoped and its changing the face of the game. The NHL has struggled with this and the rules are slowly changing and every year it takes another step away from the older play of the 80's and 90's now with the focus instead on skill and talent. A lot of the old fans were turned off but a lot of new fans have been created. They have struggled and some controversial decisions had to be made but it is alive and growing or at least stabilizing.

    While I'm not a fan of the Sochi judging I'm not willing to judge the entire sport on one event or two cases of bad judging. I've said it before, yes, but are the world standings really not indicitive of who put forth the best work these last few seasons?....I truely believe a few minor changes can be implented slowly as the sport inevitably evolves and grows for the better. Mathman is probably right. It is less pretty to some folks. To others it is very exciting and now is the launch of a new era that has many of us I probably could sum up my rant in one sentence or two. Yes...change is in order but IMO the good outweighs the bad still and at least at my rinks the sport seems quite vibrant. So criticize away as necassary but don't lose sight of the positives and what I consider to be the heart of the sport itself. It's something even the best politicking can't ever hide and eventually trumps all..the talent we see on the ice can not be overlooked. It may take more work for others and it may be easier for some. Some skaters take advantage of opportunities, some make there own, and some get missed. This can never be fixed ....there will never be a fair for all. Along the way there will be stories of success and unjust. This will never change no matter what system we put in place.

  10. #70
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,212
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Pretty gross generalization there.

    In the sense though, I think you're right. Which is why I'm not sure figure skating's decline in North America had anything to do with judges/system/corruption. It's simply due to the lack of stars. Therefore, I'm not sure if we can "save" figure skating. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, of course, but we can get all the best judges/system you want, and figure skating could still be nowhere in NA as long as the top contenders are from Japan/Russia/Korea/whatever.
    The biggest and most obvious problem with figure skating is ... most people do not find the skates entertaining.

    Just stop and think about that for a minute.

    most people do not find the skates entertaining
    That is problem number one. The way the scoring system is designed:
    1) causes a maximum number of sloppy skates filled with errors
    2) even the rare occasions (in singles) when the skates are clean, people still do not find them enjoyable to watch (overly rigid and repetitive composition, too long and complicated + not aesthetic step sequences, lack of "free" in free skate, etc.)

    There are exceptions, and die-hard fans can enjoy watching just about anyone skate of course. But the most important people to reach are the marginal fans.

    -----

    Now if the scoring system isn't changed, then figure skating will decline even more and remain dead -- perhaps forever.

    But let's say that the figure skating community does the sensible thing -- that just about anyone would do -- and devises a scoring system that maximizes aesthetic and athletic quality. It gets people excited again to watch figure skating and see performances that move them to tears, make them go "wow, bravo!" or simply take their breath away. Then what?

    Well, when they are emotionally invested and they see the sport is obviously corrupt, they are once again turned away. Sometimes corruption doesn't even need to exist, only the mere appearance or possibility of corruption can cause great damage. In most amateur and professional sports, the governing bodies go to extreme lengths to prove to the public that their sport is fair. That's not always the case of course -- there's often cheating in sports, sometimes isolated, sometimes systemic ... but almost always the people running the sport do everything they can to get people to believe the sport is fair.

    But not in figure skating. As we have repeatedly seen, the ISU and its Federations do not care what the fans think. If the fans vote with their money and attendance that the performances are not entertaining -- the ISU and its Federations do not care. If the fans vote with their money and attendance that they think the competitions are rigged -- the ISU and its Federations do not care. They simply do not care what you think as a fan. Which is why it's comical to read some figure skating fan forums and see the constant pollyanna "what, cheating? whimsy me, you guys are paranoid ... let's all make up and hug and just go on to the next competition!" As if it matters ... it's all a farce.

    There are undoubtedly lots of great people in the figure skating community who would like to change things and make skating great again, see viewership and attendance and participation rise, etc.

    But as of now they are being blocked by corrupt political machines. And as long as those political machines rule in their interest and not the sport's, figure skating is dead and not much worth watching.

    Not by what I've seen in recent years, anyway.

  11. #71
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    At the Rink
    Posts
    2,835
    The biggest and most obvious problem with figure skating is ... most people do not find the skates entertaining.
    Couldn't disagree more. Yes some people share your view but not everyone and I highly doubt most. People of course meaning the FS community and even fringe fans. I can't tell you the number of calls I recieved from friends and family after the team event about "that little Russian girl"

    It gets people excited again to watch figure skating and see performances that move them to tears, make them go "wow, bravo!" or simply take their breath away. Then what?
    This is happening Mao FS at Sochi, Yuna SP at Sochi, a multitude of the ladies SP's at WC's, Have you been to Yuzuru's fan page, Yulia at Euros, Mao at NHK, Lip at SC, Park at WC's,Elena Radinova about anywhere,D/W or V/M at Sochi, C/L SP, Caro Ave Marie, Mirai at Nats, Suzuki at Nats,.. Etc... thats just some of the skates this year alone that countless people are connecting to. It may not be the same skates as in the classics but that doesn't mean everyone isn't feeling it or that they are less valued. Change is always met with resistance. That can't be changed but people are still in awe of the talent this sport is producing. I am.

  12. #72
    Yulia forver! I'm on team dumped Ice Dance. Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    2,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    The biggest and most obvious problem with figure skating is ... most people do not find the skates entertaining.
    You could say that for ballet and opera as well. So what? Should we close down all the theaters because many people, or most of them, do not find it "entertaining"? In the end, I don't care what most people find entertaining or not.
    There are many other sports who most people don't like, but I love them like volley, fencing etc., but they do exist and I watch them. So do other people.

    You seem like you're on mission to convince us (or yourself?) that we shouldn't watch FS anymore. If you don't want to watch it fine. I don't understand why are you wasting your time here.

  13. #73
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,456
    That is problem number one. The way the scoring system is designed:
    1) causes a maximum number of sloppy skates filled with errors
    2) even the rare occasions (in singles) when the skates are clean, people still do not find them enjoyable to watch (overly rigid and repetitive composition, too long and complicated + not aesthetic step sequences, lack of "free" in free skate, etc.)
    I'm actually with you in that I find the current scoring system prone to producing sloppy, "movement for movement's sake" skates that aren't enjoyable. But clearly we don't speak for everyone. My friend, hardly a diehard fan, ranted to me about Yuzuru's SP, Yuna's SP, Plushenko's Team performances, Machida's Team LP... My mother really appreciated Davis/White's skates, even though they won over our Canadian icons Virtue/Moir. Neither of them were very impressed by the men's splatfest LP, but it certainly didn't make them detest figure skating forever or something.

    If current programs are so universally not enjoyable, how come figure skating is doing just fine in Japan? On the rise, in fact. It seems like the lack of a star hurts it popularity more than the quality (or lack thereof) in the programs.

    Also, how is any of this relevant to Hersh's article? He didn't say anything about sloppy/boring programs and how the scoring system should be fixed to avoid that. He just wrote a bunch of stuff about "the hug" (not the angle that'll help Korea's case), made some offensive and culturally charged comments about Korea, completely skips the fact that all the figure skating powerhouses actually voted to abolish anonymous judging, holds his points to be "self-evident" and thus not worth discussing... Same old, same old poor journalism. Being "right" (in some ways) doesn't excuse him from needing to write a decent article.

  14. #74
    Yulia forver! I'm on team dumped Ice Dance. Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Milan
    Posts
    2,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    It seems like the lack of a star hurts it popularity more than the quality (or lack thereof) in the programs.
    This.

    It's the same thing with many other sports.

    As for Hersh article, as I said in my previous comments, I fully agree for the same reasons.
    To use the analogy with FS, it's like an empty program. Without content.

  15. #75
    Love popcorn, hate horrendous costumes. Meoima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North of the world
    Posts
    3,097
    JFS have Yuka Sato, Midori Ito in the early times.
    Then they have Shizuka Arakawa, a beauty nevertheless, as the OGM.
    Next they have Miki Ando, another beauty, with 2 worlds title.
    They have Mao, the biggest idol.
    For the men, after Honda they have Dai, the sexy and handsome good guy.
    After Dai they have Yuzuru, nation's favorite son.
    Not to mention all the other skaters like Nobu, Machida, Kozuka, Akiko, Kanako... All have skated in the top level.
    Their youngster field doesn't look as deep as the Russians, but they have some young talents who can shine in the future. Marin Honda seems like their next big thing.

    I don't think the Japanese people are fine with the corrupt judging, as the Japan Times is one of the loudest after Sochi. It's just they have so many stars to keep up the popularity of the sport.

    If US had one skater with immense talent and star quality like Yuna or Mao, for sure FS in US wouldn't have to suffer too much at the moment.

Page 5 of 10 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •