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Thread: Denney and Coughlin out for 2014-2015 season

  1. #16
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    Also, Caydee if you're reading this: rest up, get well, and we hope to see you skate again in a year!

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    I disagree with those that say they wouldn't have been a factor internationally. I think they're wayyyyyyyyyyy more dynamic than Castelli and Schnapir were and much more interesting than Zhang and Bartholomay. I think they easily could have topped the podium in the US again and done well in the grand prixs. I think US Pairs is in a very sorry state right now.
    I wouldn't say they would have easily won 2015 Nationals. Its not 2012. They haven't been National champions or even been at Worlds or 4CC since 2012 (which of course was due to injury). In any case, I don't think the judges were reserving the podium just for them at this point. Could they have been in contention for the title? Sure. But I could just as easily see them being third again or fourth. Z/B are very consistent, beat them this year when D/C were favorites and will be more respected by the judges next year. I know its one competition but it was THE most important competition. Things like that impact judges' perception the next year. Alexa and Chris certainly have the potential to beat them on a good day with their tech content and beautiful lines. Both Castelli and Shnapir with their new partners will be in the mix, just as John and Caydee were following the Caitlin break-up. And you have Kayne/O'Shea and World Jr Champs Denney/Frazier who are both young and could make a big climb. The pairs title was and is wide open next year with or without D/C, even more so than this year.

    Your personal opinions regarding Z/B and C/S are just that- opinions. You clearly prefer D/C and I can appreciate that. However, there are probably just as many fans (and some judges) who feel the opposite. They've always been a pretty polarizing team. In any event, saying they're "wayyyyyy more dynamic" than C/S is really irrelevant now as that pairing ended in May and there was no chance of them meeting head to head again.

    I don't think US pairs is in a sorry state. I think its in probably the deepest field in a decade. Would it be a stronger field with Castelli/Shnapir and Denney/Coughlin? Yes. But neither of those teams were going to be world medalists next season and I think we have several teams that could assert themselves and get the same 4CC and GP silver medals D/C won in prior years and perhaps steadily climb in the run up to 2018.

  3. #18
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flutzy13 View Post
    As far as internationally, I think there's certainly opportunity to build a lot over the course of the quad but with the two teams with the longest international resumes out, I don't think next year will be a big year internationally for US pairs but if they can start setting up for Boston 2016 and Pyeongchang, that will be great.
    This. I actually think Z/B (potentially), S/K, and D/F all have good potential, especially, actually, D/F. I say potentially about Z/B because their elements are really quite small relative to the other pairs, even in the USA, and I am not sure if that can be fixed or not, but if they can get bigger throws and twists, they're definitely in the mix. Castilli and Shapir + new partners may have potential too but of course we all need to see the new pairings. If some of these teams can actually manage to stay together (always the struggle in the USA) I think we really do h ave a solid place to build from now.

    I don't think we've seen the last of Denney, but I do think we've seen the last of Coughlin.

  4. #19
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    I'm guessing when she does come back, it could be with a new partner and John will retire, although I could be wrong.
    I was thinking this also.

    Wishing both John and Caydee the best and a full recovery for Caydee.

    Thanks for the info Mrs. P.

  5. #20
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flutzy13 View Post
    I wouldn't say they would have easily won 2015 Nationals. Its not 2012. They haven't been National champions or even been at Worlds or 4CC since 2012 (which of course was due to injury). In any case, I don't think the judges were reserving the podium just for them at this point. Could they have been in contention for the title? Sure. But I could just as easily see them being third again or fourth. Z/B are very consistent, beat them this year when D/C were favorites and will be more respected by the judges next year. I know its one competition but it was THE most important competition. Things like that impact judges' perception the next year. Alexa and Chris certainly have the potential to beat them on a good day with their tech content and beautiful lines. Both Castelli and Shnapir with their new partners will be in the mix, just as John and Caydee were following the Caitlin break-up. And you have Kayne/O'Shea and World Jr Champs Denney/Frazier who are both young and could make a big climb. The pairs title was and is wide open next year with or without D/C, even more so than this year.

    Your personal opinions regarding Z/B and C/S are just that- opinions. You clearly prefer D/C and I can appreciate that. However, there are probably just as many fans (and some judges) who feel the opposite. They've always been a pretty polarizing team. In any event, saying they're "wayyyyyy more dynamic" than C/S is really irrelevant now as that pairing ended in May and there was no chance of them meeting head to head again.

    I don't think US pairs is in a sorry state. I think its in probably the deepest field in a decade. Would it be a stronger field with Castelli/Shnapir and Denney/Coughlin? Yes. But neither of those teams were going to be world medalists next season and I think we have several teams that could assert themselves and get the same 4CC and GP silver medals D/C won in prior years and perhaps steadily climb in the run up to 2018.
    I would say that Denney and Coughlin were very consistent, when they weren't dealing with injury. They did win the FS at Nationals (though I guess people could argue their score was inflated and what not) and they did beat C/S at Skate America and were the only team to medal during the GP. So I think they are a factor, though I agree they were not a sure bet to win Nationals this season.

    I was also at Nationals this year and I thought C/S were quite dynamic, especially in the SP So yes opinions can differ. And though Z/B doesn't have the explosive elements of Denny and Coughlin and Scimeca/Knierim, I do think they are pretty consistent team and they seem hungry and driven, which is a plus. Champions/contenders are not always created overnight, and this is a team that came in with a relative whimper, so I expect more surprises.

    I'm actually excited to see how the pairs teams will take advantage of this opportunity. No. 1 is wide open now. Who will take it?!

  6. #21
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    All this discussion of US pair standings has me think about Timothy LeDuc. I was a big fan of L/L so I'm nervous for Tim's future! Wishing good things for him. I guess, since male partners tend to have an easier time finding partners, he definitely has a chance to keep moving forward.

    One thing I do like about Z/B despite the relative smallness of their elements, is their exuberance and the fact they give the impression they genuinely like one another. They also feel like a 'better matched' pair to me in a lot of ways, although obviously we haven't seen Castelli/Tran or Leng/Shnapir in action yet.

  7. #22
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breathesgelatin View Post
    One thing I do like about Z/B despite the relative smallness of their elements, is their exuberance and the fact they give the impression they genuinely like one another. They also feel like a 'better matched' pair to me in a lot of ways, although obviously we haven't seen Castelli/Tran or Leng/Shnapir in action yet.
    Thanks for articulating this. Z/B left a very positive impression on me live, despite the fact they didn't have the explosiveness of other teams as far as individual elements go. Felicia's joy is especially a pleasure to watch.

    I think Z/B seems to have a positive thinking going as far as peaking at the right time.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by flutzy13 View Post
    I wouldn't say they would have easily won 2015 Nationals. Its not 2012. They haven't been National champions or even been at Worlds or 4CC since 2012 (which of course was due to injury). In any case, I don't think the judges were reserving the podium just for them at this point. Could they have been in contention for the title? Sure. But I could just as easily see them being third again or fourth. Z/B are very consistent, beat them this year when D/C were favorites and will be more respected by the judges next year. I know its one competition but it was THE most important competition. Things like that impact judges' perception the next year. Alexa and Chris certainly have the potential to beat them on a good day with their tech content and beautiful lines. Both Castelli and Shnapir with their new partners will be in the mix, just as John and Caydee were following the Caitlin break-up. And you have Kayne/O'Shea and World Jr Champs Denney/Frazier who are both young and could make a big climb. The pairs title was and is wide open next year with or without D/C, even more so than this year.

    Your personal opinions regarding Z/B and C/S are just that- opinions. You clearly prefer D/C and I can appreciate that. However, there are probably just as many fans (and some judges) who feel the opposite. They've always been a pretty polarizing team. In any event, saying they're "wayyyyyy more dynamic" than C/S is really irrelevant now as that pairing ended in May and there was no chance of them meeting head to head again.
    Yes, but it should also be noted that Denney/Coughlin had several errors at '14 Nationals while Z/B skated as well as they could. If anything, it was a blow to the US to have Z/B at Olympics & Worlds because they didn't have the scoring potential to place well with solid skates, as was evidenced by their 12th & 14th places, respectively (with 3 out of their 4 skates solid- and without a third Chinese pair there). I disagree that Nationals is the most important competition; Worlds/Olympics is the most important competition. Z/B have done very well at US Nationals because of their consistency and because most US pairs don't have big explosive elements either. They don't tend to get swallowed up there like they do at Worlds where a whole host of pairs have bigger elements and smoother skating and will outscore them without skating clean. How a pair sizes up with the other US pairs (particularly when only one competition is used to determine this) versus how a pair sizes up with a Worlds field can be two different things. So while I agree that D/C likely wouldn't have run away with the '15 US title, they were still a top US pair. On a normal day, D/C was probably a better team than both teams they lost to at Nationals.

    Then again, D/C didn't appear to have huge scoring potential themselves, in that they had many clean or nearly clean international skates that were getting good scores, but scores that even a team like Castelli/Shnapir, for example, could beat or nearly beat with some mistakes. But D/C did regularly surpass Z/B's scoring capabilities and were one of the only US pairs that had potential to place in the single digits at a Worlds/Olympics. While their skating style might be described as rough, D/C were one of the more explosive US pairs, and internationally that absolutely helped them. They probably deserve more credit than some fans give them.

    As someone else mentioned, I'm not sure if the size of Z/B's elements (I hate to single them out, as this is a bit of a US pairs trend) is something that can be fixed or if it's simply what their elements look like and we need to just enjoy this pair for what they are. I can't think of many teams with small elements that suddenly increase them to be big. Pair teams can obviously improve through the years, but explosiveness is something that comes naturally to a pair, or it doesn't. The infectious joy of Felicia, especially, makes me not worry so much about their elements when I watch them, but they're just not likely to stand out on a world level.

  9. #24
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    To be fair, D/C didn't appear to have huge scoring potential themselves, in that they had many clean or nearly clean international skates that were getting good scores, but scores that even a team like Castelli/Shnapir, for example, could beat or nearly beat with some mistakes. But D/C did regularly surpass Z/B's scoring capabilities and were one of the only US pairs that had potential to place in the single digits at a Worlds/Olympics. While their skating style might be described as rough, D/C were one of the more explosive US pairs, and internationally that absolutely helped them. They probably deserve more credit than some fans give them.

    As someone else mentioned, I'm not sure if the size of Z/B's elements (I hate to single them out, as this is a bit of a US pairs trend) is something that can be fixed or if it's simply what their elements look like and we need to just enjoy this pair for what they are. I can't think of many teams with small elements that suddenly increase them to be big. Pair teams can obviously improve through the years, but explosiveness is something that comes naturally to a pair, or it doesn't. The infectious joy of Felicia, especially, makes me not worry so much about their elements when I watch them, but they're just not likely to stand out on a world level.
    Honestly, I was at Nationals, and I would say that Z/B's elements were noticeably smaller than ALL of the other pairs in the top 2 flights, and not by a small amount. Surprisingly to me D/C also didn't have very big elements even relative to the other pairs- her throw jumps didn't get much height or distance AT ALL and had very little speed coming out. But yeah, Z/B's elements were substantially and quite obviously smaller than any of the other US teams that are competitive Nationally- smaller than D/C and also much smaller than C/S and smaller than S/K, Denny/Frasier, Kayne/O'Shea, and Donlan/Speroff. They really have very small elements.

    I am not saying this as someone who dislikes them but as a fact. One of the best moments of Nationals for me period was Felicia beaming during her and Nate's final lift. But their elements are indeed small, even compared to the other teams we have.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    Yes, but it should also be noted that Denney/Coughlin had several errors at '14 Nationals while Z/B skated as well as they could. If anything, it was a blow to the US to have Z/B at Olympics & Worlds because they didn't have the scoring potential to place well with solid skates, as was evidenced by their 12th & 14th places, respectively (with 3 out of their 4 skates solid- and without a third Chinese pair there). I disagree that Nationals is the most important competition; Worlds/Olympics is the most important competition. Z/B have done very well at US Nationals because of their consistency and because most US pairs don't have big explosive elements either. They don't tend to get swallowed up there like they do at Worlds where a whole host of pairs have bigger elements and smoother skating and will outscore them without skating clean. How a pair sizes up with the other US pairs (particularly when only one competition is used to determine this) versus how a pair sizes up with a Worlds field can be two different things. So while I agree that D/C likely wouldn't have run away with the '15 US title, they were still a top US pair. On a normal day, D/C was probably a better team than both teams they lost to at Nationals.

    Then again, D/C didn't appear to have huge scoring potential themselves, in that they had many clean or nearly clean international skates that were getting good scores, but scores that even a team like Castelli/Shnapir, for example, could beat or nearly beat with some mistakes. But D/C did regularly surpass Z/B's scoring capabilities and were one of the only US pairs that had potential to place in the single digits at a Worlds/Olympics. While their skating style might be described as rough, D/C were one of the more explosive US pairs, and internationally that absolutely helped them. They probably deserve more credit than some fans give them.

    .
    I should have been more clear- I simply meant Nationals is the most important for sizing up the teams head to head versus comparing GP results etc- it's where funding gets decided and sort of sets a domestic tier system for the following season. I definitely don't think it's more important overall than Worlds or the Olympics. I agree that D/C would have almost certainly finished ahead of where Z/B placed at Worlds and the Olympics.

    I disagree that they were a "better team" than Castelli and Shnapir unless better simply means more consistent. C/S with a fall in the SA SP were within a point of D/C; their messy FS at nationals still got higher PCS than Denney and Coughhlin's winning FS. They had more polish and therefore had a small buffer. Had C/S regularly skated like they did in the Sochi pairs event, I don't think D/C could have ever beaten them and definitely not in Sochi. But the fact is their Sochi skates were the exception and Denney and Coughlin's norm was to hit their elements. And that's to their extreme credit. At the same time, when it really counted, C/S beat them and as a result, they will be announced as Olympics medalists for the rest of their lives. D/C may have won the number of overall head to head match ups but in the end C/S have more to show for it.

    As far as Z/B, I'm not sure they'll ever stand out on a world level. But I don't think they should be counted out nationally at all. Assuming S/K, D/C had they stayed or anyone else will just leapfrog them because of smaller elements or potential or anything else reminds me of this time last year when most posters here seemed to think C/S would automatically concede the National title to D/C or S/K. Felicia and Nate are Olympians who likely consider themselves the top US pair by virtue of their silver medal and the C/S split. I am sure they're not looking to lose their status as one of the very top US pairs and I think they'll show up at Nationals hungry to climb one more step to the top of the podium. Personally, I'd love to see them as champions.

  11. #26
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    Does anyone know why Tran and Purich split? And will Tran now skate for the U.S.?

  12. #27
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flutzy13 View Post
    As far as Z/B, I'm not sure they'll ever stand out on a world level. But I don't think they should be counted out nationally at all. Assuming S/K, D/C had they stayed or anyone else will just leapfrog them because of smaller elements or potential or anything else reminds me of this time last year when most posters here seemed to think C/S would automatically concede the National title to D/C or S/K. Felicia and Nate are Olympians who likely consider themselves the top US pair by virtue of their silver medal and the C/S split. I am sure they're not looking to lose their status as one of the very top US pairs and I think they'll show up at Nationals hungry to climb one more step to the top of the podium. Personally, I'd love to see them as champions.
    Yeah, one should not underestimate determination/hunger for competition when it comes to any team. I don't think it's too late for them to develop the skills they need to be competitive on the world stage.

    And I'm sure Z/B know their weaknesses. After all they spent several weeks with Savchenko/Szolkowy training at their rink. I think their weaknesses would be pretty obvious after skating with them!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    Honestly, I was at Nationals, and I would say that Z/B's elements were noticeably smaller than ALL of the other pairs in the top 2 flights, and not by a small amount. Surprisingly to me D/C also didn't have very big elements even relative to the other pairs- her throw jumps didn't get much height or distance AT ALL and had very little speed coming out. But yeah, Z/B's elements were substantially and quite obviously smaller than any of the other US teams that are competitive Nationally- smaller than D/C and also much smaller than C/S and smaller than S/K, Denny/Frasier, Kayne/O'Shea, and Donlan/Speroff. They really have very small elements.

    I am not saying this as someone who dislikes them but as a fact. One of the best moments of Nationals for me period was Felicia beaming during her and Nate's final lift. But their elements are indeed small, even compared to the other teams we have.
    Yeah, D/C's explosiveness was apparent mainly in their twist, but I still think their throws were bigger than most of the US teams (except for C/S, S/K, D/S). They did have a little trouble with them at Nationals though.

    Quote Originally Posted by flutzy13 View Post
    I disagree that they were a "better team" than Castelli and Shnapir unless better simply means more consistent. C/S with a fall in the SA SP were within a point of D/C; their messy FS at nationals still got higher PCS than Denney and Coughhlin's winning FS. They had more polish and therefore had a small buffer. Had C/S regularly skated like they did in the Sochi pairs event, I don't think D/C could have ever beaten them and definitely not in Sochi. But the fact is their Sochi skates were the exception and Denney and Coughlin's norm was to hit their elements. And that's to their extreme credit. At the same time, when it really counted, C/S beat them and as a result, they will be announced as Olympics medalists for the rest of their lives. D/C may have won the number of overall head to head match ups but in the end C/S have more to show for it.
    It was D/C who fell in the SA SP, C/S doubled the SBS jump. They scored within a point of each other, but both had a big error, so they were pretty even there. But yeah, mainly due to consistency, D/C were going to beat C/S most of the time. C/S were a little better PCS wise (mostly in their last 2 seasons, as their programs were quite strong), and D/C were better at some of the elements. Neither of them showed elegance or good lines, but C/S did appear to end up having slightly better scoring potential than D/C. D/C were scoring 120 for clean LPs, and while C/S only reached 120 once, they did it with a few mistakes. So in a way, I agree with you that C/S ended up being the better team. It's just that C/S struggled with the harder elements for so many years (kudos to them handling adding difficulty this past season) and never did as well at Worlds (although they did well at the Olympics) or the GP as D/C did, so I feel reluctant to consider them the better team. But like you said earlier, it's irrelevant to compare them now with both teams out.

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