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Thread: Did G&G Ever Do a Quad Twist?

  1. #1
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    Question Did G&G Ever Do a Quad Twist?

    Just wondering: Did Gordeeva and Grinkov ever do a split quad twist?

    If you ask me what I do in my "off" time when there is no skating on TV or local competitions, I will tell you that I pull out my crummy old tapes and badger other skate-o-philes for theirs. Each year usually unearths some old poor-quality tape or other from someone. I just recently watched an old Worlds ('87? or thereabouts) and I SWEAR that G&G did a split quad twist in this Worlds. Does anyone else remember this?

    I'm thinking of it alot lately because of all the hoopla over the Chinese pairs and their "new" quad influence. It seems to me that, even if G& G didn't do one at that Worlds, ( I SWEAR they did) they HAD done them in practice at some point. This was years ago. IT seems to me that this quad-fest for pairs is like the quads for singles men---Kurt Browning did one at Worlds way back in 90 or so-----and yet, when the Russians started doing them in the Olympics nearly a decade late, everyone was agog as though it was a new idea.

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    They did it, but they took it out before the Olyms for two reasons according to Katya's book.

    1) The rotation was so quick that some judges didnt realize it was a quad and not a triple.
    2) It was very hard to do physically. Katya's pulse went over 200 when she did it. (They measured it midair...thats just how RUS used to be)

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    When I read the article to on the Zhangs, I thought the same thing. I am sure in Katia's book, she talks about doing the quad twist in the early days of her career. And I am sure they did it at least at the Europeans.

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    I think they did it, but it wasn't ratified for some reason? Of course, I don't know why the Zhangs was ratified, becuase she pretty much fell on him during the catch. The ISU can be funny about those sorts of things.

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    Gordeeva & Grinkov did the split quad twist in the long programs (televised) at 1986 Skate Canada, 1987 Europeans and 1987 Worlds. I sent an email with this info to the ISU after the Zhangs' quad twist was ratified as being "the first," but never heard anything back (not that I was expecting to).

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    Scott Hamilton miscalled the twist as a 3 twist... they completed the quad... but it was so fast not very many people caught it.

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    I remember there being quite a bit of controversy at the time. They were so mismatched in size. She was around 14 and so tiny. He looked like a giant next to her. [Unbelievable, I know ] Many people weren't impressed at all with the quad. I remember the general attitude as being - if all the men had partners that weighed 3 pounds, they could all do quad twists too. It seemed to just emphasis the size difference more than anything. It was probably better for them to stop doing it.
    Last edited by SusanBeth; 04-10-2004 at 01:30 PM.

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    Thumbs up

    Thank you all for replying to this.

    I watched it over and over and thought it a perfect quad twist--full rotatations, perfect air position, almost lateral, clean catch. I think it was the Worlds competition, and what Sylvia said confirms that for me. I thought I was seeing things because of the recent Chinese quad being called "the first" one. I can't imagine why G&G's wasn 't "certified. After seeing it with "new" eyes.

    I also don't understand, after comparing, why there was so little credit given--since G&G still had everything else going on, too, like their speed and transitions, and difficulty. Then--to top it all off, they were ELEGANT skaters with superb pair "connection".

    I'm glad that the Chinese have chosen figure skating as one place that they feel comfortable interacting with the "real" world (i.e., the rest of us), and I see the vast improvement that they've made over the last decade, but in this case---my opinion only---I don't feel that they've done anything "new and improved" like they are being given tremendous credits for doing of late.

    I think this parrallels the gushing over Kulick's quad toe in '98 Olys. People had done quads before, and Browning did his in a Worlds event nearly a decade earlier--I think Bowman had been doing them in practice for years, too, and had tried some unsuccessfully in major competitions--again, all of this years earlier. I don't know for sure, but I'm betting someone might have info about Elvis Stoyko's early quads showing that he started very early in the "quadfest" with his.

    I guess what I'm getting at here is this: When is a "first" really "first", and if it's not, then why not--and who is the one who says so--or not?

  9. #9
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    I'm not sure why the Canadian Men aren't given more credit for the quad-fest. Browning was the 1st to land a quad in competition. Elvis was the 1st to land it in combination in competition.

    My speculation is that the Russians are the 1st country where more than 1 of their men are able to land them consistently in the same 'generation' (defined for this purpose as the 4 year period between Olympics). With regards to well-known competitiors, Browning and Elvis did not have teammates known for quads. In the US, only Tim is truly considered to have relatively consistent quads. Russia had Ilia, Alexei and Plushy in the top with quads and they all had presentation at the same time.

    Don't get me wrong. I love Kurt's skating and enjoyed Elvis's eligible career.

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    Originally posted by pipsqueak
    Thank you all for replying to this.

    I watched it over and over and thought it a perfect quad twist--full rotatations, perfect air position, almost lateral, clean catch. I think it was the Worlds competition, and what Sylvia said confirms that for me. I thought I was seeing things because of the recent Chinese quad being called "the first" one. I can't imagine why G&G's wasn 't "certified. After seeing it with "new" eyes.

    I also don't understand, after comparing, why there was so little credit given--since G&G still had everything else going on, too, like their speed and transitions, and difficulty. Then--to top it all off, they were ELEGANT skaters with superb pair "connection".

    I'm glad that the Chinese have chosen figure skating as one place that they feel comfortable interacting with the "real" world (i.e., the rest of us), and I see the vast improvement that they've made over the last decade, but in this case---my opinion only---I don't feel that they've done anything "new and improved" like they are being given tremendous credits for doing of late.

    I think this parrallels the gushing over Kulick's quad toe in '98 Olys. People had done quads before, and Browning did his in a Worlds event nearly a decade earlier--I think Bowman had been doing them in practice for years, too, and had tried some unsuccessfully in major competitions--again, all of this years earlier. I don't know for sure, but I'm betting someone might have info about Elvis Stoyko's early quads showing that he started very early in the "quadfest" with his.

    I guess what I'm getting at here is this: When is a "first" really "first", and if it's not, then why not--and who is the one who says so--or not?
    I agree with you about all the gushing over the Chinese pairs skaters. They do bigger throws and split twists but other than that I don't see a big contribution to pairs skating from them. G&G did complete the quad twist at worlds but I don't think they were the first to achieve that. I am not sure why the Zhangs are being credited, and by who. If it's just our commentators saying they were the first to do it, it just means yet another misinformation from them. If it's official, like by the ISU, then I would have to really wonder why, because G&G's quad twist was clean. I did not see the other pair's so I cannot comment on it.

    Re:Kulik's quad in the 98 Olympics, I don't think he is being given credit for the first quad (and that is correct). He was not the first skater to land it in the Olympics. Petr Barna did a quad toe (though 2-footed) in the 92 Olympics. I think a Chinese skater landed a quad (may have been two) in the 98 Olympics, before Kulik did, but I will have to check my tape. AFAIK, nobody landed it in the 94 Oly's (Stojko had planned it but he replaced it with a 3A during the performance).

    Kurt Browning has been given credit for landing the first quad in world competition, and Elvis Stojko has been given credit for the first quad combo. I don't believe Kulik's quad has been given a lot of importance other than the fact that he landed it in his very strong LP in Oly 98.

    Vash

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    IIRC Marina Cherkasova and Sergei Shakhrai were the first to do quad twist in 1977 at Euro's. They also did sbs triple salchow's. They dropped the moves it seems when she grew but she was at her tiniest at this period.

    In 1987 Worlds Betty Callaway was co-commentating for UK coverage and sh says during replay of G&G 4twist that she'd never seen a better one anywhere - which does imply that they were done before.

    BTW does anyone know which program the Zhangs did theirs in? Would love to download it and have a look

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    Originally posted by Vash01
    Re:Kulik's quad in the 98 Olympics, I don't think he is being given credit for the first quad (and that is correct). He was not the first skater to land it in the Olympics. Petr Barna did a quad toe (though 2-footed) in the 92 Olympics. I think a Chinese skater landed a quad (may have been two) in the 98 Olympics, before Kulik did, but I will have to check my tape. AFAIK, nobody landed it in the 94 Oly's (Stojko had planned it but he replaced it with a 3A during the performance).
    If Petr Barna's quad was 2-footed, then it was not clean, and he would not be ratified as the first to land a clean quad in the Olympics. I don't know about the Chinese skater, as I don't have coverage of more than the top skaters, but I thought Kulik was the first to land a quad in the Olympics.

  13. #13
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    I find things like this very disconcerting. Giving Zhangs credit for the first ever quad twist??? Does anyone know if the ISU has issued credit to them, or is it really just American commentators? If I were Cherkasova and Shakrai I'd be a little mad about not getting full credit for something I'd accomplished before anyone else. I've never seen a tape of them doing this element, but I have seen G&G do it, and they were amazing. Same exact technique on the quad twist as on the double and triple. Just perfect. I think ample credit should be given to them as well for doing this element so perfectly.

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    Originally posted by Vash01
    I agree with you about all the gushing over the Chinese pairs skaters. They do bigger throws and split twists but other than that I don't see a big contribution to pairs skating from them.
    Also to me they don't do better throws and split twists either. IMO. Most the Chinese ladies don't even do a split in their twists.

    I don't see a big contribution from them to pairs skating. It concerns me that they keep winning all the time as well. Will these be the pairs people remember and imitate for years to come? I for one hope not.

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    The ISU does a lot of strange things. Browning's first quad had a turn out, as did Taylor's first triple axel. I don't know why they were considerd clean. Josef Sabovcik(sp?) claims he was robbed when the ISU didn't ratify his. He landed a clean looking one years before Browning.

    I think Elvis used to get more credit as the first "quad king"-for landing the first quad-double, and the first quad triple (at the GPF in 97). He was also more consistent than Browning. I think Browning only landed two. They did get credit, but as years pass, people talk about more recent events.

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