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Thread: Jumps-Telling Them Apart -Learning Them

  1. #1
    Ferinheight should never enter negatives! StitchMonkey's Avatar
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    So in trying to keep jumps straight. . . I put them in a table of sorts to kinda think things out. Yes I know some people land with their left foot. . . but it is easier for me to think this way and swap it for the skater than deal with opposite or same. Let's just pretend everyone lands on their back right foot.


    Take Off Foot With Toe Without Toe
    Right Inside
    Right Outside Toe Loop Loop
    Left Inside Flip Salchow
    Left Outside Lutz (Backwards Axel)

    So my questions are, well, first off, how wrong have I got this? Second why are there no right inside edge jumps? Is there a reason beyond not wanting to deal with another Lutz/Flip/Flutz/Lip situation for edge calls? Also, is the Axel and evolution of trying to do a Toeless left outside edge jump/toeless Lutz? I am wondering if the front facing takeoff is just do to it being a pain in the donkey to take off that way backwards/too close to a Salchow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    Let's just pretend everyone lands on their back right foot.
    Are they quadrupeds? "backwards on their right foot" or "on their right back outside edge" or even just "on their right foot" would be more accurate

    Take Off Foot With Toe Without Toe
    Right Inside
    Right Outside Toe Loop Loop
    Left Inside Flip Salchow
    Left Outside Lutz (Backwards Axel)

    So my questions are, well, first off, how wrong have I got this?
    The common jumps named are correct. There's no such thing as a "backward axel." A left back outside takeoff, rotating counterclockwise and landing on the right foot, would be a "toeless lutz" which I've never actually seen executed but used to be listed in the USFSA rulebook. I doubt it's ever been done with more than one rotation.

    Second why are there no right inside edge jumps? Is there a reason beyond not wanting to deal with another Lutz/Flip/Flutz/Lip situation for edge calls?
    Right back inside edge jumps (rotating counterclockwise and landing on right back outside) are walley (no toe) and toe walley (with toe).

    Walley is only ever done as a single. I've only once ever seen a skater attempting a double walley.
    The IJS rules treat this as a "nonlisted" jump. Skaters can do as many as they like as transitions and they earn no points as technical elements. They're about as common as other jumps used as transitions.

    Toe walley has been considered the same jump as toe loop for purposes of the Zayak (repeated triples) rule ever since that rule first was instituted in 1982-83. There's less difference in the action between toe loop and toe walley than between flip and lutz. So skaters do whichever is easier for them, which in almost all cases is the toe loop.

    Also, is the Axel and evolution of trying to do a Toeless left outside edge jump/toeless Lutz? I am wondering if the front facing takeoff is just do to it being a pain in the donkey to take off that way backwards/too close to a Salchow.
    The axel is actually the first rotational jump that was attempted -- by Axel Paulsen of Norway in the 1880s, probably on speed skates. Salchow, lutz, etc., were invented in the early 20th century.

    Waltz jump -- from left forward outside to right back outside with half a revolution -- had been around much longer. I don't know whether it first was invented by skaters jumping over logs, etc., when skating on ponds, or as a way of making three turn-change feet more athletic by executing the 180-degree turn and weight shift to the other foot in the air.
    Axel can be thought of as elaborating the waltz jump by adding a rotation in the air -- that's my guess about what Mr. Paulsen was aiming for.

    After he proved that getting from one edge to another by rotating more than a full revolution in the air was possible, people started experimenting with jumping to and from other edges. They soon found out that the back outside edge was the most stable landing. The jumps listed in your chart and in the ISU Scale of Values (plus the axel) are the ones that provide enough power and possibility to get quickly into a tight rotating position to have developed as doubles and then triples and quadruples over the course of the 20th century.

    Right forward inside, 1.5 rotations, land backward on right back outside is known as an "inside axel." It's not listed in the IJS Scale of Values so it can be used as a transition and will earn no points. I don't see skaters using it for that purpose though. Some coaches may teach it as a learning tool or warmup tool.
    Again, it doesn't provide enough power/convenient body alignment to get more than 1.5 revolutions for most skaters -- I only know of two skaters in the last 40+ years who have ever attempted it as a double.

    Other takeoff and landing options were undoubtedly all tried earlier in the 20th century with half or single rotation. Those that didn't go well with multiple rotations either have been ignored or have been used as small transitional hops with half or single rotation that don't count as elements and don't get mentioned in commentary.

    You might find these explanations and charts helpful:
    http://sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_jumps_index.htm#codes
    http://sk8stuff.com/f_basic_ref/jump_table.htm

  3. #3
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    So in trying to keep jumps straight. . . I put them in a table of sorts to kinda think things out. Yes I know some people land with their left foot. . . but it is easier for me to think this way and swap it for the skater than deal with opposite or same. Let's just pretend everyone lands on their back right foot.


    Take Off Foot With Toe Without Toe
    Right Inside
    Right Outside Toe Loop Loop
    Left Inside Flip Salchow
    Left Outside Lutz (Backwards Axel)

    So my questions are, well, first off, how wrong have I got this? Second why are there no right inside edge jumps? Is there a reason beyond not wanting to deal with another Lutz/Flip/Flutz/Lip situation for edge calls? Also, is the Axel and evolution of trying to do a Toeless left outside edge jump/toeless Lutz? I am wondering if the front facing takeoff is just do to it being a pain in the donkey to take off that way backwards/too close to a Salchow.
    I'll wait for the experts to chime in, but from what I have learned by being on this board:

    1. There is a right inside edge jump, the Walley and the toe Walley. The toe Walley is scored just like a toe loop in the ISU judging system, so there is no reason to do one. The Walley (no toe pick) is too hard. I son't think anyone can do even a double.

    2. The toeless Lutz is a jump, but again it is so hard that no one can do it, except a single.

    3. The Axel jump was invented by a speed skater named Axel Poulsen in 1882. I think he was just trying stuff, showing off before the main event, a speedskating race or a barrel jumping contest. This was before the other jumps were codified, such as the Salchow. The first Salchow was in 1909, by Ulrich Salchow. So the Axel is not an attempt to jazz up a Salchow.

    But sometimes the opposite happens. If a skater pre-rotates his Axel too much, doing almost a half-turn on the ice, then it is basically a Salchow in Axel clothing. Evan Lysacek had a pre-rotated Axel, for instance.

    Edited to add: Never mind.

    What gkelly said.

  4. #4
    Custom Title humbaba's Avatar
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    I found this site helpful in learning to distinguish one jump from another. My apologies if it's already been mentioned.

    http://www.thewire.com/culture/2014/...ympics/357723/

  5. #5
    Ferinheight should never enter negatives! StitchMonkey's Avatar
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    gkelly

    Wow, that is more information than I feel like I can form an articulate response to that conveys my gratitude. . . so thank you for the study material, glad to have stuff to simmer on.

    FWIW, the line that by far helped me start to keep jumps straight was a guild that flat out said something to the effect of "All jumps land on the same back outside edge" That little piece of info really helped to get things clicking into place for me (Until it was spelled out I assumed the landed on different feet for different jumps, I tend to over complicate things - I kept trying to use the landings as a clue to what jump it was. . . that does not work) part of why I made the chart to focus on the take off and ignore the landings. I have tried many times to read/watch videos on the difference, so few just say "they all land on the same foot unless you are weird" and really that was the piece of the puzzle that was missing for me (by "back right foot" I did mean landing backwards, and I did on some level know it is outside edge, but yeah rereading it it does sound weird - really I was trying to say "please don't confuse me with same foot/opposite foot lingo, that throws me off and) . . . . I also only ever can remember the Salchow food/edge by remembering that the flip used to be/sometimes was called the "Toe Salchow" so yeah, I am a weirdo that finds flip and lutz easier to keep track of.

    I half want to make a skater skate in two different colored boots to demonstrate the different jumps. . . someone like me might actually find that useful.




    New question. Can a skater be marked for two footing a take off? Sometimes I see skaters do loops (I think - Pretty sure at least I have caught this when an announcer calls it a loop at least) where it looks almost like the skater takes off from a back right outside edge (i.e. normally unless I am confusing myself again) with the left foot crossed over the right foot with its outside edge still on the ice. Sorta like they hit the air position before taking off and jump off both feet at the same time almost. Similarly with the Salchow, it almost looks like they are taking off form both their left inside back edge while their right foot is still on the ice (for a long time it frequently looked to me it was taking off the right foot). Is there a rule for this? Can a skater cheat and take off with two feet sorta, is that part of why we see quad Salchow attempts, can you get some extra ummph from the other foot? Does the non take off foot need to get off the ice according some sorta of rules regarding time and height?



    . . . ok now I have to go there. Backflip, why can't that be like a Walley (or a Mazurka as it seems I have more to learn about) as a transition/choreographic element? I can kinda get behind the not allow it as a jump, even after Surya showed you can land it on one foot, but why not just let them do it, but not reward it/not treat it as a jump? Hell, even just let them do it but make it clear if you are doing nothing sliding across the ice getting ready for it you are going to get hit for interrupting the flow, but let them if they really want. Im just thinking a combination that uses backflip to get on your left foot the same way half-loops are used in combination would be really cool to see.

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    I don't know from personal experience, but I would think it would be very hard to generate rotation if a skater actually took off from two feet for loop or salchow. I do think some skaters glide on two feet going into the loop but then lift the free foot off just before taking off from the takeoff foot.

    There's no written guideline for the tech panel on how to penalize a two-foot takeoff in calling jumps, which suggests that this has not been a problem tech panels have been seeing.

    Nor is there a GOE guideline for the judges specifically for two-foot takeoffs. There is GOE guideline of -1 to -2 for "poor takeoff," so if a judge thought the takeoff looked weird and possibly two-footed, they could penalize it with that reduction.


    I know I have given my thoughts about backflips on this forum before, possibly in this very thread, but I can't find the relevant post(s). To summarize:

    Backflips have been illegal since 1976. I think the reasoning was that horizontal rotation around a vertical axis (as in the standard jumps) is largely generated by control of the skating edge and therefore demonstrates mastery of skating-relevant skills, whereas vertical rotation around a horizontal axis (as in backflips) ignores or occurs despite the curve of the edges, depending on purely acrobatic skill rather than skating skill.

    Other non-skating moves that are also not rewarded and have been either limited or outright illegal (with required deductions) according to the rules over the years include lying or sliding on the ice without either blade on the ice. Something like a cartwheel with hands on the ice on the ice would similarly be illegal. It's not about skating.

    A secondary consideration is probably safety. If skaters who have mastered backflips include them in their programs and win competitions on the strength of everything else they do in the program, other skaters might attribute those wins to the backflips and attempt to include them in their own programs without learning them properly. Kids attempting backflips on practice sessions without proper instruction, supervision, and harnesses could lead to crippling or fatal injuries and be dangerous to other skaters on the ice.

    Pair moves such as detroiters (man spins in place while holding the lady overhead) and headbanger/bounce spins (man spins in place holding the lady by her feet/legs so that her head repeatedly drops toward the ice) have also long been illegal in competition, for similar reasons.

    We have seen all these moves in exhibitions and show skating at least since the mid-20th century until now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    gkelly
    FWIW, the line that by far helped me start to keep jumps straight was a guild that flat out said something to the effect of "All jumps land on the same back outside edge" That little piece of info really helped to get things clicking into place for me (Until it was spelled out I assumed the landed on different feet for different jumps, I tend to over complicate things - I kept trying to use the landings as a clue to what jump it was. . .
    A tip for you - if you want to make things easier for yourself, don't concentrate on just the take-off edges. Look at the body position and the preceding steps! Sometimes they tell more about what jump the skater intends to attempt than the actual edges (in the case when a skater has poor technique or botches the jump completely). After some time you should be able to tell what jump the skater wants to execute before they even get into the take-off position in 95% cases (then there are those skaters who can jump out of unusual entrances and make things more fun ).
    Another silly tip - if you are able to, try to mimic single jumps off-ice, imagining that the left side of your foot is right edge, etc. This will help you visualise how a skater body will look like while they are executing different jumps. A great way to quickly differentiate 3T from 3F/3Lz without even looking at the edges and to never be confused by clockwise jumpers again

    New question. Can a skater be marked for two footing a take off? Sometimes I see skaters do loops (I think - Pretty sure at least I have caught this when an announcer calls it a loop at least) where it looks almost like the skater takes off from a back right outside edge (i.e. normally unless I am confusing myself again) with the left foot crossed over the right foot with its outside edge still on the ice. Sorta like they hit the air position before taking off and jump off both feet at the same time almost. Similarly with the Salchow, it almost looks like they are taking off form both their left inside back edge while their right foot is still on the ice (for a long time it frequently looked to me it was taking off the right foot). Is there a rule for this?
    A slight assistance from the free leg is considered to be a proper technique by most of the officials/coaches. However, it shouldn't be overdone.

    In the case of a loop jump, the assistance of a free leg is used to get the rotational momentum (the free leg should leave the ice before the take-off leg). Some skaters who use this technique are capable to execute a loop jump without assistance from a free leg just fine as a second jump in a combo or out of running threes. In that case, they gain the rotational momentum from the 1st jump, or from the 3-turns.

    In the case of the Salchow jump, the free leg should just sweep lightly over the ice; the sweeping motion is used to gain the rotational momentum.


    Can a skater cheat and take off with two feet sorta, is that part of why we see quad Salchow attempts, can you get some extra ummph from the other foot? Does the non take off foot need to get off the ice according some sorta of rules regarding time and height?
    Yes, some skaters put so much weight on their free legs that it changes the mechanics of the jump. I can't think of a "cheated" 3L example among the elite skaters right now, but a good example of a questionable Salchow would be the jumping style of Timothy Goebel. His Salchows, especially the quads, often looked more like wonky toe-loops. However, IIRC, he wasn't penalized for this, despite the rule 322 which existed at that time "In the case of jumps (including toe jumps) special attention must be paid to a clean spring starting from a true edge and to a clean landing. Any jump commenced or landed on two feet shall not be marked by the Judges."
    Some technical specialists, like Sonia Bianchetti (the ex-chair of the ISU Technical Committee), made an attempt to make deductions for obvious two-foot take-offs more severe. In her book, she stated that the two-footed Salchow entry is "a severe error for which a steep deduction has to be applied by the judges".

    There's no official prescribed penalty for this under current rules, although the judges can deduct GoE for "poor take-off".

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