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Thread: Short Dance Choreographic Penalties at Nebelhorn 2014

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Short Dance Choreographic Penalties at Nebelhorn 2014

    Many of the teams in the ice dance short dance at Nebelhorn had choreographic penalties imposed. This was a surprise! And not a pleasant one.

    People wonder what is going on?

    Here's the provision for penalties:

    9 Violation of choreography restrictions • Short Dance: as per Rule 709, para 1.d) (pattern), g) (separations), h) (stops) and i) (touching the ice with hand(s)
    Here's the rule 709 provisions referred to:


    6. Separations and stops - choreography restrictions Short Dance – Rule 709 (former Rule 609), paragraphs 1.g) and h) g) Partners must not separate except to change hold or to perform Required Elements requiring a separation, Turns as transitional elements and moves during the permitted stops. The distance between partners during such separations should not exceed two arms lengths. Change of hold and Turns as transitional elements must not exceed the duration of one measure of music. Separations at the beginning and/or end of the program may be up to 10 seconds in duration without restrictions on the distance of the separation; h) After the clock is started with the first movement, the Couple must not remain in one place for more than 10 seconds. During the program up to two (2) full stops in addition to stops required in Required Elements are permitted (duration must not exceed 5 seconds each) unless otherwise specified in an ISU Communication

    The pattern must proceed in a generally constant direction and must not cross the Long Axis of the ice surface except once at each end of the rink (within no more than 20 meters of the barrier). Loops in either direction are permitted provided that they do not cross the Long Axis. However: crossing the Long Axis while performing the Not Touching Step Sequence or Steps 16 to 23 in Pattern Dance Elements Silver Samba, performing one loop within no more than 20 meters of the barrier and crossing the Long Axis: - - inside the Partial Step Sequence in Senior Short Dance, to start the second Pattern Dance Element Silver Samba in Junior Short Dance, performing the Not Touching Circular Step Sequence in the clockwise direction (applicable for Junior only

    ...

    g) Partners must not separate except to change hold or to perform Required Elements requiring a separation, Turns as transitional elements and moves during the permitted stops. The distance between partners during such separations should not exceed two arms lengths. Change of hold and Turns as transitional elements must not exceed the duration of one measure of music. Separations at the beginning and/or end of the program may be up to 10 seconds in duration without restrictions on the distance of the separation; h) After the clock is started with the first movement, the Couple must not remain in one place for more than 10 seconds. During the program, either up to two full stops (duration must not exceed 5 seconds each) or up to one full stop (duration must not exceed 10 seconds) are permitted. In Senior Short Dance, not more than one of those permitted stops, not exceeding 5 seconds, may be included in the Partial Step Sequence. Any choreography appropriate to the music selection (including a separation of no more than two arm length apart, except for the stop permitted in the Partial Step Sequence, which must fulfill the Hold specifications of the Partial Step Sequence) may be included; i) j) The program must be developed through skating skill and quality rather than through non-skating actions such as sliding on one knee, or use of toe steps which should be used only to reflect the character of the dance and underlining rhythm and nuances of the chosen music. In the interest of the public in the arena, programs should be choreographed to all sides of the arena and not only focused to Judge’s side; Touching the ice with the hand(s) is not permitted.
    Nebelhorn's judging experiment made it easier to impose these penalties, because there were effectively fewer judges. Here's how the penalty is imposed:


    Rule 430, paragraph 2 – some change in duties of the Judges – together with the Referee, decides upon the deductions according to Rule 353, paragraph 1.n) for the violation of the following requirements or restrictions: costume, prop, choreography and (Ice Dance only) music. Those deductions are applied according to the opinion of the majority of the panel which includes all the Judges and the Referee. No deduction is made in case of a 50:50 split vote;

    At least that's my guess about what went on. Has anyone heard the official story??
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 09-27-2014 at 07:40 PM.

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    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Thx for starting the thread, Doris. Cross-posting my thoughts from the Nebelhorn thread:

    From IN's SD recap (emphasis added):
    Eight of the 11 couples received a one-point deduction for "violation of choreography restrictions." When asked about it, none of the top teams could explain why the deduction was taken. Evidently, they had violated Rule 709 and performed an incorrect pattern, separation or stop, or touched the ice with a hand. The event's technical controller, Michela Cesaro, a former Italian ice dance competitor, will give an explanation for this deduction after the free dance.
    http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/09/25/96339046

    Hoping that the TC's explanation eventually will get reported somewhere (although IN's post-FD recap said nothing).

    Maybe it's one of the newly revised parts of Rule 709 (as underlined below) that is unfamiliar to the dancers?? The source of the excerpt below is page 3 of:
    ISU Communication No. 1875
    Ice Dance
    I. Various Changes in the General Regulations, Special Regulations and Technical Rules Accepted by the 55th ISU Congress

    http://static.isu.org/media/139539/1...gress-2014.pdf (Jun 24, 2014)

    6. Separations and stops - choreography restrictions

    Short Dance – Rule 709 (former Rule 609), paragraphs 1.g) and h)

    g) Partners must not separate except to change hold or to perform Required Elements requiring a separation, Turns as transitional elements and moves during the permitted stops. The distance between partners during such separations should not exceed two arms lengths. Change of hold and Turns as transitional elements must not exceed the duration of one measure of music.
    Separations at the beginning and/or end of the program may be up to 10 seconds in duration without restrictions on the distance of the separation;

    h) After the clock is started with the first movement, the Couple must not remain in one place for more than 10 seconds. During the program up to two (2) full stops in addition to stops required in Required Elements are permitted (duration must not exceed 5 seconds each) unless otherwise specified in an ISU Communication.

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    Maybe its time they revised that rule.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The same rule existed at all the JGP's to date, as well as at Lombardia and Salt Lake and I haven't seen it called. The bar is pretty high when you have to get over 50% of the judges+the referee. However, at Nebelhorn n the SD, as you can see from the protocol:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt..._SD_Scores.pdf

    There are only 5 judges: a little easier to get a group voting to enforce the rule, as part of the judging experiment.

    Furthermore, the deduction was not called at all during the FD.


    In which case, I am thinking a pattern error, since that is for the SD only
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 09-27-2014 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    The same rule existed at all the JGP's to date, as well as at Lombardia and Salt Lake and I haven't seen it called. The bar is pretty high when you have to get over 50% of the judges+the referee. However, at Nebelhorn n the SD, as you can see from the protocol:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt..._SD_Scores.pdf

    There are only 5 judges: a little easier to get a group voting to enforce the rule, as part of the judging experiment.

    Furthermore, the deduction was not called at all during the FD.


    In which case, I am thinking a pattern error, since that is for the SD only
    But ... the protocols show that the Referee + all twelve Judges collectively determined whether each couple received the choreo deduction.
    In other words, the decision was not limited to the Referee + the five Judges assigned to score the Choreography component for the Nebelhorn experiment
    For Weaver/Poje, for example, Judges 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 + Judge 11 + the Referee were in favor of imposing the choreo deduction. Only Judge 10 and Judge 12 were not.

    Re the lack of FD deductions:
    The wording of Rule 709 (as you quoted in the OP) specifies that it applies only to the SD.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    There is a similar rule for the FD, but there is no mention of not touching step sequences, since the FD can't have one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    There is a similar rule for the FD, but there is no mention of not touching step sequences, since the FD can't have one.
    Could a critical difference btwn Rule 709 (SD) vs. Rule 710 (FD) be that the time limit per separation is one measure of music for the SD vs. five seconds for the FD?? (Except at the beginning or end of the program.)

    Interesting that Chock/Bates did not receive the SD choreo deduction, but Min/Koleto from Team Shpilband did. And both DSC couples did.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Yes, it is quite puzzling. However, since there are several rules covered by this one penalty label, it is tricky.

    At least some of the penalized couples were too far apart while "Not Touching"



    Distance between partners during such separations should not exceed two arms lengths.
    -this rule has been in place for a while, but I have not seen the penalty invoked before, even though quite a few couples have gotten too far apart in the past.

    So why now?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 09-28-2014 at 05:17 AM.

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    I see that yesterday (post FD) @LynnRutherford tweeted that she is "checking" on the SD deductions. (Lynn earlier had tweeted about the deductions immediately after the SD.)

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    @LynnRutherford how now tweeted that they "crossed middle axis of the rink at or near center ice instead of at the ends"

    . . . so now can someone laymenize it?

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    @LynnRutherford how now tweeted that they "crossed middle axis of the rink at or near center ice instead of at the ends"

    . . . so now can someone laymenize it?
    Exactly... It is puzzling. I mean, does it have something to do with the specific requirements of the pattern dance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    @LynnRutherford how now tweeted that they "crossed middle axis of the rink at or near center ice instead of at the ends"

    . . . so now can someone laymenize it?
    Thx, Stitch. More from ‏@LynnRutherford:
    .@hopscotchy This violates old rule. Nebelhorn used split judging. Prior to event judges critiquing choreo were reminded of old rule.
    9:45 AM - 28 Sep 2014
    https://twitter.com/LynnRutherford/s...67453014638592

    But I still don't understand how the split judging experiment comes into play??
    As I said in a previous post, the Nebelhorn protocols show that all twelve Judges + the Referee determined whether the choreographic deduction was applied.

    Anyway, I hope that Doris will laymenize Rutherford's reporting for us.

    Meanwhile, the excerpt below is from Rule 709, 1 d.

    The pattern must proceed in a generally constant direction and must not cross the Long Axis of the ice surface except once at each end of the rink (within no more than 20 meters of the barrier). Loops in either direction are permitted provided that they do not cross the Long Axis. However:
    -  crossing the Long Axis while performing the Not Touching Step Sequence or Steps 16 to 23 in Pattern Dance Elements Silver Samba,
    - performing one loop within no more than 20 meters of the barrier and crossing the Long Axis:
    - inside the Partial Step Sequence in Senior Short Dance,
    - to start the second Pattern Dance Element Silver Samba in Junior Short Dance,
    - performing the Not Touching Circular Step Sequence in the clockwise direction (applicable for Junior only),
    do not constitute violations of these provisions.

    From "General requirements for Short Dance" in Handbook for Referees and Judges (Date: 31.7.14):

  13. #13
    Custom Title StitchMonkey's Avatar
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    So. . . . basically stay on one side of the rink. . . then cross, then stay on the other. . .

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    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
    So. . . . basically stay on one side of the rink. . . then cross, then stay on the other. . .
    Sorry but personally I think deduction for this is unnecessary.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It is the same rule that was used for the old OSP-another version of individually created pattern dances.

    The second sequence of the paso is created by each team, and it must obey the rules of pattern dance creation, which includes not crossng the center line drawn between where the 2 goalie nets would be if this were hockey, except at the ends of the rink.

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