Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: Possible Changes to Adult Moves in the Field

  1. #1
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73

    Possible Changes to Adult Moves in the Field

    Just wanted to give everyone in the U.S. who tests the adult moves in the field track that there is a proposal to change the elements at each level. So, pre-preliminary would translate into pre-bronze, preliminary into bronze, and so on. I haven't looked, so I don't know if all the elements are used in the adult version or not. Supposedly the passing score is 0.1 lower on each element for the adults.

    So... those of you testing might want to consider the timing of your test, depending on whether the old or new version would be best for you. Obviously I don't know if this proposal will pass; it wll be interesting to see. Below, just fyi, I showed the current and proposed Bronze test elements. Too bad I can't pick and choose from the entire set of elements! I may be stuck having to do those awful alternating 3's after all!

    Current:
    Forward perimeter power crossover stroking
    Backward perimeter power crossover stroking
    forward power 3's
    Alternating backward crossovers to back outside edge
    5 step Mohawk

    Proposed:
    Forward and backward crossovers
    Consecutive outside and inside spirals
    Forward power 3's
    Alternating forward 3-turns (outside and inside)
    Alternating backward crossovers to back outside edge


    If anyone wants more information, about the other levels, I can provide it. Anyone going to adult nationals can provide some input; there is a survey you can hand in there.

    Pat

  2. #2
    Salchows and Shimmies!!!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    470
    Pat: What would pre-bronze MITF consist of compared to the present?

  3. #3
    In love with the axel!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Detroit Michigan
    Posts
    413
    According to the midwest adult vice-chair, there are no changes on the table for the next GC. There will be a survey for adults to give input, however.

    Look for the post from w.w.west on this thread:

    http://skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=13535

  4. #4
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    The "proposed" changes are being discussed at a meeting at Lake Placid. The "Proposal for Revision to Requirements for Adult MIF Tests" was sent out by Maggie Harding and is on the meeting agenda. I have no personal knowledge of what will happen to this "proposal" after Lake Placid. I hope that it is in the early stages. And I encourage everyone to provide feedback if you are interested in this. I also think that when big changes like this are being considered, it ought to be publicized early so that as much feedback as possible can be obtained earlier rather than later, and from a bigger group rather than a smaller group.

    Oh, and the survey is on a variety of topics, not just the proposed moves. In fact, the listing of the proposed moves is not on the survey as far as I can recall.

    Beth-- This is the list of current vs. "proposed" pre-bronze moves:

    Existing Adult PRE-BRONZE MIF
    Utilizes Pre-Preliminary and Preliminary MIF
    Forward Perimeter Stroking
    Basic Consecutive Edges (FO, FI, BO, BI)
    Forward and Backward Crossovers
    Alternating 3-Turns
    Mark = PASS/RETRY

    Proposed Adult PRE-BRONZE MIF
    Utilizes only Pre-Preliminary MIF
    Forward Perimeter Stroking
    Basic Consecutive Edges (FO, FI, BO, BI)
    Forward Right and Left Foot Spirals
    Waltz Eight
    Mark = PASS/RETRY

    Pat

  5. #5
    Salchows and Shimmies!!!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    470
    Pat: Can you also give us the current and proposed SILVER and GOLD MIF here so we have a complete set? THANKS!!!!

  6. #6
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    There is a poster over on skatingforums that says these are possible changes to be discussed at a meeting at Lake Placid (adult nationals). So, apparently they are not to be voted on at this year's governing council, and it's early in the discussion process. Be that as it may, I think I will concentrate a little more on my bronze moves and try to pass them by early next year, just in case things are changed at next year's governing council.

    Anyone who wants to get an idea of what is being considered only has to go to the USFS website, www.usfigureskating.org , and look up the moves in the field summary. The current adult moves are listed, and then you can look up pre-preliminary (which could become pre-bronze, preliminary (which could become bronze), pre-juvenile (silver), and juvenile (gold).

    Good luck to everyone in any and all skating endeavors!
    Pat

  7. #7
    Salchows and Shimmies!!!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    470
    You know, I think I'm at the point where I may just put this whole testing thing on HOLD until they make up their bloody minds!!! After my Spring ISI comp, I really want to work with my coach this summer to get deeper edges and finally wrestle three turns to the ground and get them under control, so I won't be testing anytime soon anyway.

    I mentioned this discussion to our Head Coach, and she agreed that something has to be done, because the originals tests are putting in skills that are too difficult for adults at that particular level. Plus from what I've read elsewhere, the test judges don't really seem to know exactly HOW to judge adults, and some people fail because the judges use the same standards as for kids when they aren't supposed to. I really hope they get this figured out. I had intended to do MITF all along (starting with pre-pre, initially), so I hope this gets worked out.

  8. #8
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Yaz,
    I was talking to my coach last night and mentioned the thing about the lower passing standard for adults and he interjected, "which they don't do anyway." I hope at least they can better educate the judges on this issue.

    And actually, I think after my next competition I will go back and really work hard on the current bronze moves and try to test them by the end of the year or next spring. Who knows what they will put into the levels in the future, and if this current proposal will last, but I do know that I'm not likely to get a backspin any time soon, so if I could pass Bronze moves before they fiddle with the structure, I'll be a happy camper. Since I've made some progress lately on the power 3's and my mohawks, I am starting to have some hope that I could maybe some day actually pass the existing bronze moves. And Skate Wilmington usually has a compulsory moves event, so that would fit in nicely.

    I'd just say don't waste your time and money actually testing the standard track moves, since you may have to start at the beginning anyway when you test the adult track. Practice them, sure, but why test at this point. I even have a waltz 8 in my interpretive program, but I never tested pre-pre and don't intend to.

    You don't have anything to lose exactly by testing pre-bronze moves if you can. It would get you the opportunity to skate at more competitions (well, after you passed the pre-bronze free, too), and at worst you'd have to repeat a couple of elements in a changed test structure. It's not like they could take the pre-bronze test away from you once you passed it.

    Pat

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,977
    I have just started skating again and I was thinking about taking lessons to test for mif. I'm not sure what to make of the whole thing. How did they decide what kind of moves to incorporate in each track? I read compaints about the Adult Gold moves and how it incorporates novice moves. Perhaps they did that b/c for most adults that's the pinnacle of what they will reach so it's the adult version of the "senior" level tests where you get a medal (or pin) for completing it.

    On USFSA , maggie harding posted that they were having trouble with the current track of mif for adults which was why they were evaluating them, however they are not voting to do anything with them yet.

    So why do the adult track if they are going to change it? Some people have posted that they're doing both tracks but that's just too expensive to do all that testing. Also , if Adult moves are "judged" more leniently (I heard that was not the case even though in theory they're supposed to), how can an adult reasonably hope to move on to kiddie track novice after adult gold?

    I realistically won't have to worry about taking tests for a while but it's fun to think about what to aim for.

  10. #10
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    73
    Originally posted by soogar


    So why do the adult track if they are going to change it? Some people have posted that they're doing both tracks but that's just too expensive to do all that testing. Also , if Adult moves are "judged" more leniently (I heard that was not the case even though in theory they're supposed to), how can an adult reasonably hope to move on to kiddie track novice after adult gold?
    Well, right now you have to do the adult track if you want to compete in adult competitions, or take the adult free skating tests. There is no grandfathering to account for having passed the standard track moves, except I remember something about crossing over after intermediate. And the "leniency" is only 0.1 on each element. I have heard that the adult gold moves test is tough, even if the judges have been judging more leniently at the lower levels since it is a gold test, but I don't know how true that is. I think that's a pretty great achievement but if an adult is going to then switch to novice, he/she will have to adjust.

    Pat

  11. #11
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Venice, CA
    Posts
    2

    the prob with adult moves

    Hi!

    I am an adult silver level skater, who hopes to be more, but have osteoarthritis in both knees and am currently awaiting my 4th and 5th arthroscopies. So my skating progress has been slowed a little bit, but like most of us, they would have to lock me up to keep me off the ice.
    Unlike most of my adult skating pals, I have opted to take the standard MIF testing track. In part, it is because I began working on the standard track before an adult track was created, but now that I have witnessed testing on both tracks, I am decidedly in favor of standard track, for several reasons.
    First of all, having been involved in the sport now on both coasts for almost 12 years, I've seen tremendous growth in the Adult sector, which makes me enormously happy. However, I think few of us would argue that often times adult skaters are not taken as seriously as the younger kids. However, we pay the same amount for ice time and coaching, and we work as hard if not harder to gain the same skills as the kids. But in order to gian the respect that we deserve, it is important for the judges to judge us seriously.
    With my struggles with my knees, which have the arthritis of someone twice my age, according to my doctors, I am aware that adults have age-related factors that may somewhat limit their ability to bend as deeply or gain a certain amount of speed. However, the purpose of MIF is to get the skater to improve their edge work and flow on the ice. It is every bit as important to skating as the jumps and the spins, if not more so, because if you are properly using your edges and distributing your weight on the moves, you are also training your body to be in the proper position for everything else. Moves may lack the excitement of jumping, but the fact is, by taking the time to learn the moves properly, you are more likely to find that you will be able to do jumps that you have never been able to land before.
    I'll admit it is not easy. With my knee injuries, I had to struggle for months with the intermediate moves. My coach had to break down edges all over for me, and we had to find ways that I could achieve the edge and flow that the judges expected at that level. In addition, I did have to deal with judges that expected that as an adult, my moves should be at a higher level than the kids...perhaps not realizing that I am a true adult skater who did not skate as a child. One judge told me that I reminded him of Lisa Marie Allen, and basically inferred that I should then skate the test as well as if she were to do it now as a professional. I also had to deal with judges that had taken the adult track themselves, and were known to disapprove of adults who aspired to the standard level.
    It was extremely frustrating for me, facing some predjudice while dealing with the fact that my knees don't always do what I expect them to do. I failed the test six times (probably some sort of record ), before finally passing it on the seventh. But I also improved with every single test, and although I am not jumping much right now, all that edgework has improved the take-offs and landings when I do jump. So all the pain and effort was worth it.
    If the adult track was taken as seriously, I suppose I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. But on many occasions I have witnessed adults test, and the judges apparently did not feel it was right for them to expect that the correct edge be hit, or the move to be executed properly. I am not suggesting that some allowances shouldn't be made; perhaps going a bit more slowly, allowing a little less flow, etc. But the fundamental moves shouldn't be compromised, because then passing the test is no true accomplishment. Let me give an example.
    Recently I watched a sixty year old woman take the gold moves test. On the forward crossovers, which are supposed to show SOME sort of acceleration, the woman stayed at the same speed for all of them. I wouldn't expect the same speed from her as the kids, but I would expect that she at least show some change of speed, as the test requires it. On the move requiring back-crossovers stepping out to a back inside edge, the woman was slow, yes, but she also NEVER actually hit the inside edge. It was similar throughout many of her other moves. In addition, the woman played background music during her test, and the test took over forty-five minutes for her to complete it, causing other skaters to have to reschedule and the club scurrying to find a way to do so. While I admire the woman for attempting the highest test of the adult MIF track, the fact that the judges passed this attempt seemed disrespectful. By doing so, the judges were essentially saying that the woman could not be expected to do the moves correctly, but that she should be passed just for trying. Having seen this test, I wouldn't have felt I accomplished anything if I would have taken and passed the adult gold test, and I am sure others who have executed the moves correctly would also feel slighted to know that others are passing in this manner. Additionally, the skater is obviously not mastering the basic edges upon which the test is based. So passing in such a manner is unfair to adults in general.
    I hope that my surgeries will be successful enough to allow me to continue testing the moves, and I aspire to passing through the Sr. moves if I am able. However, I do realize that realistically my age and my knees are a factor that may prohibit me from doing so. And I wouldn't want a judge to pass me if I did not merit passing marks. Not every skater will be able to pass every test. That is a fact we all recognize. In order for adult skaters to gain the respect that we deserve, it is important that we expect no less from the adult track, and insist that the judges do the same. I wouldn't want to discourage a senior-citizen from attempting to test, but if an even lesser standard is to be used in the judging than a younger adult, than the USFSA should determine if making the gold test passable at that age is worth creating perhaps an older adult track, for skaters 50 or 60 years and up. Otherwise the judging standards must remain consistent for all adults, just as they are on the standard track.
    Yes, MIF are required to move up to the next level of freestyle. But you cannot convince me that a skater that cannot hit an inside edge is ready to test the adult gold freestyle test. If an adult can land a clean axel, I find no reason for them not to be able to hit the proper edges. I'll willingly admit that moves are not my favorite way to spend an hour on the ice. But I realize their relevance and importance, and plan to keep working on them for as long as I am able, no matter how hard it is to keep failing something that I have worked so hard on.
    But I skate to accomplish my goals. And every failure and disappointment along the way proves that when I DO finally pass my tests, I have TRULY accomplished something that I can be proud of.
    So please, work on the edges and take whatever track you are on seriously, and encourage the judges to do the same. No matter how the adult track evolves, it is doing so in the best interest of the skater, and while the pattern of the edges may change, the edge quality and control and the flow remain the same. It may take you a little longer, but the satisfaction you will attain in knowing that you have truly accomplished something is worth every bit of frustration along the way!

  12. #12
    Salchows and Shimmies!!!
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    470
    gemini: Are you a skating judge or test judge? I'm not trying to sound critical, but perhaps the judges saw something you didn't, or knew something about the skater that you didn't that made a difference in their opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong, but maybe there was more there than what met your eye.

    From what I've read, the problems with adult testing lie more on the side of adults being failed because the judges attempt to judge them by the same exact standards they use for kids, even through the adult passing standards may be different. I plan to test USFS, but I also don't want to get to the point where working for tests takes over my life and ruins skating for me. In the long run, I skate for fun and because I have a passion for the sport. Now, that doesn't mean I won't take testing seriously, but I don't think is should become either an obsession or a chore. I also don't think that at age 46 I should be held to the same standards as a more flexible 12 year old who can adapt to moves much more easily than me. You seem rather critical of your fellow adult skaters, expecting only those who demonstrate the highest skill standards to be deemed "passable." I don't think making things as hard as possible for adults to pass tests is exactly going to encourage more people to go into the sport. I think that would have the opposite effect and discourage more adults from actively testing and competing. I think USFS and adult skaters have to collaborate to work out a fairer system. Hopefully, that will happen in the future. You're actually looking at one of the reasons why I'm still sticking with ISI at this time. ISI has never made me feel like a "lesser" skater than any other skater of any age. They also seem to encourage adults rather than setting up potential roadblocks to their participation.

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    1,977
    Yazmeen:
    I'm just starting out but when I skated regularly years ago, adult skating was practically unheard of and adults were ridiculed for spending a lot of time and training on the sport. Now that the USFSA has finally wised up and wants the added revenue that adult skating can provide , they still haven't quite figured out where to put adults.

    Personally , while I haven't tested, passing an Adult Gold or Seniors (std track) is a pinnacle achievement in itself. Most adults don't have the time to go to std track and do adult track. It doesn't feel like an achievement if it takes a year or two to pass through to adult gold. I thought maybe the rational behind putting the novice moves in the Adult Gold test was to make the level more reflective of the achievement that it really is. When you make the adult track equal to the first 3 levels of std track and make the judging lenient (in theory), you take away a lot of the achievement from the level , perhaps cheapening it.

    On the other hand I can see where you are coming from in terms of encouragement of adults in the sport. We aren't children and while we can aspire to more speed and deeper knee bend and more flow, the reality is that our bodies may not allow us to. A lot of people get satisfaction from passing tests. It makes us feel good about ourselves and we feel like we're progressing somewhere.

    I'm not sure how the USFSA can resolve these two interests. Maybe they should look to the ISI for a way to create tests for the recreational adult skater. However bear in mind that the USFSA is a competitive organization and does not have the experience in promoting skating as a recreational hobby sport. Its primary goal is to get people on the podium so the adult skating phenomenon is something that it's not used to (testing solely for recreational purposes, personal satisfaction). Plus the judges are used to judging the elements solely on whether they are performed correctly and not using grades for different abilities.

    Gemini: I think that it's fantastic that you persevere with testing despite the bad knees. I can see your point in how there needs to be integrity in the testing. As for the 60 year old passing gold, quite frankly I think any judge would be swayed by the fact that a 60 year old is testing and a 60 year old doing crossovers and steps is impressive. I can even see why they would be lenient and let her test for 45 minutes and use music. This is a big deal to her , she's not getting any higher and why not let her enjoy that moment?
    Last edited by soogar; 04-16-2004 at 11:24 AM.

Similar Threads

  1. Adult Pre Bronze moves tips
    By Shellyduchsk8s in forum 2004-05 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-17-2005, 10:59 PM
  2. Adult Worlds
    By thisthingcalledlove in forum 2003-04 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-10-2004, 09:24 AM
  3. FAB-O / FLUB-O Lessons & Practices 3/17 - 3/23
    By Cinderella On Ice in forum 2002-03 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-23-2003, 08:04 AM
  4. Does Anyone Here Skate in Adult Competitions?
    By Cinderella On Ice in forum 2002-03 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-22-2003, 12:24 PM
  5. Adult Skater Club Survey & Question/Canadian Adult Nats
    By Singerskates in forum 2002-03 Figure Skating archives
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-22-2003, 01:38 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •