I don't know why Kovtun putting 5 quads didn't excited me much. If this would be Yuzuru, i would say great and jump! But somehow not the lack of quads is Kovtun's problem. It's his jump technique who looks weird, it's his lack of charisma and personality on the ice which i would like to be more in his focus. I would more applaud a program with only one quad but with the other issues cleaned than a programm with 3 quads.... Would he be the Tim Goebel of his generation?
His jump technique is weird, yes, but it works for him (I mean, look at Murakami and even things like Mao's flip entry). I would rather somebody have all the technical goods and leave room for artistry then seeing an artistically improved skater who opts for easier difficulty.
There's nothing that says you can't go for higher difficulty while still improving your artistry... Fernandez and Reynolds have both done that.
A skater who's up and coming needs to rely on high difficulty to improve their artistic mark... as we saw with Lipnitskaia last season. If Kovtun does 5 quads across two programs, the system is designed that he would be competitive with even Hanyu's difficulty on paper, and if that's what he needs to do to win, that's what he should do. The judges aren't going to notice a couple more transitions, and what would that get you... maybe 3-4 points overall? Whereas a quad already has 4+ points over all the other triple jumps. If you're trying to win, and you can execute the jumps, that's what you should do -- it's how Reynolds was able to defeat Hanyu at 4CC, even though Hanyu had such a PCS advantage.
A skater does 3 quads in a program/2 triple axels (which would be the highest difficulty ever attempted under CoP)... how can you deny them the win (or at least podium) if everything else is at least average or better than average (which I think Kovtun is overall). Even if the judges try to hold back said skater's PCS, their TES mark would still ensure the higher placement. However, if your technical elements fail, unless you're the most popular skater out there (a la Chan/Kostner) your PCS won't be able to save you. So it's actually, IMO, more important to focus on technical success and consistency first and foremost and then slowly build your artistry over time.
Strong technical performances yield higher PCS over time... but strong artistic performances do not yield higher TES over time.
I think Kovtun is better at using his arms than Goebel, and has greater speed across the ice (then again, pretty much everyone's better than Goebel in those areas). His quads are uglier and more unstable than Goebel's though. Goebel, before his decline, had the best quads in the world, and they were instrumental to his placements.
If Kovtun can do five quads, go for it! It's not like his artistry will necessarily improve if he does fewer quads. The problem I have with this plan is that, most likely, he won't execute the five quads often if at all, and it'll just be a season of splatfest. Which... doesn't make him particularly worse than the other men, but it'll be unpleasant to watch nonetheless.
To be fair, Goebel has some of the best quads ever executed. His 4S for sure is one of the top quad salchows ever landed and he did them with reliability and effortlessness.
I agree that Kovtun's artistry won't take a hit if he tries for more quads. Of course, it will be extreeeemely tough to replicate 5-quad competitions but he's doing what Hanyu is doing, hedging his bets and still taking the 7 points with a fall or 9 points if he remains upright. The only risk to doing a quad is if you double it (which Kovtun and Hanyu have done of course), but if 75% of the time you do it fully rotated or clean, then it's worth the risk.
I also disagree that multiple quads detract from the program.
As far as I'm concerned, it's WAY harder to get a consistent 2-quad SP plus a consistent 3-quad LP than it is to develop artistry and transitions (most skaters will improve this anyways year to year). If you're able to get 5 quads (or 4 quads reliably), then from a points perspective, it will serve you a LOT better than developing your overall speed/transitions/etc. A program with decent choreo and average speed and 3 quads/2 triple axels will score higher than the exact same choreo with significantly greater speed and just 1 quad... the way PCS is scaled, it's not likely that leaving out a quad in order to show greater interpretation/transitions will benefit you significantly -- especially as a skater who's relatively new to the senior scene.
It doesn't make sense to accelerate artistry or even his jumping aesthetics until he's established himself as a strong jumper. Look at Mao... she was only able to change her technique after having established herself -- it wouldn't have made sense for her to rework her jump technique when she hadn't gained some years on the scene and credibility as an artistic skater.
From an aesthetics standpoint, I personally appreciate Kovtun doing 5 quads with average artistry than 2 or 3 quads with higher-than-average artistry (let's face it, he likely won't skyrocket his artistry over the course of a non-Olympic season).
...Should we take this to the quads thread? I mean, we're still talking about Kovtun, but since the mods specifically made a quads thread to keep this one on topic...?
I was trying to be careful after the mods split the two threads. Though we're still on the topic of Kovtun, our conversation (and especially my latest reply, which is on the other thread) has drifted into talking about 5-quad programs in general (and whether that's preferable to good artistry, ect).
My main problem with Kovtun in particular doing more quads is that his three-turn into them takes so long. I don't blame him for long prep into a quad; but more quads = more time taken to set them up= less time for choreo/expression. Though I guess you could argue that if the choreo isn't going to be ground-breaking anyway, why not take the time for the quads. Also I think the slowness (idk if he just takes a lot of ice and isn't actually slow though) exacerbates the unpleasantness of his quad technique.
/goes back to lurking
Welcome to Golden Skate, WoChair! Post long and often!
Bot exactly for programs with falls and rewarded falls i am not keen. You might think is wise, but even if it is for him wise to rack that points, i don't have to like them or to be excited about them. If the jumps were beautiful executed, maybe, but when the jump technik is so weird .... (no, i don't like Murakami either. I don't have also no problem with long time taken for a jump).
I have the feeling, that if any russian male skater will have decent jumps and loads of charisma, will overtake Kovtun in no time. Just my impression. A clean Gachinski packed in an interesting program from Tarasova and with only 3 quads would beat Kovtun with 5 quads.
We can make a decent case that he "should" (I know some posters here will really disagree, but I think there's a case for it). I don't think he would (but who knows, TAT's politiking could change that). But kinda a moot point because I doubt Kovtun will be able to hit 5 quads more than once every two seasons, if at all.A clean Gachinski packed in an interesting program from Tarasova and with only 3 quads would beat Kovtun with 5 quads.
Gachinski spent a little too much time in the doldrums and won't have the pcs I agree.