Why no Solo Dance? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Why no Solo Dance?

carriecmu0503

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Quite a few people have fallen or tripped on twizzles ,;)

Ask Nikita Katsalapov this year.

Heck, ask any dance team.

Exactly. Twizzles are a LOT harder than they look. Elena and Nikita lost both the European and World Championships this year because they missed the twizzles. In the case of worlds, they missed the podium all together because of their mistake with twizzles.



The "average fan" can't tell if a jump was done well or not (proper edge, full rotation, etc),
"But the "average fan" can tell if you stood up or not."

One could argue that it is really confusing when someone "stood up" on all their jumps, and yet gets a really low technical score. Standing up on the jump isn't even half the battle. Correct takeoff edge and full rotation, which the average fan knows nothing about, are just as important. A "stood up" "triple" can actually net someone almost no points if they get lots of deductions on it, deductions that cannot be identified by most people watching. And yet, people watch. If you have no interest in learning about solo ice dance, that is fine. I just ask people not be so dismissive/ flippant about it, especially when clueless about the discipline.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Oh, of course. But it doesn't happen as often as people fall on jumps (thank god). Problem of judging remains. (Also, falling on solo twizzles should be even rarer, since you don't have a partner to crash into... or a partner to stay in synch with to determine which team did better).

Woah, why are you saying I have no interest in learning about solo dance? I've stated many times in the thread that I'm totally fine with solo dance championships (and that even people who aren't interested can just not watch). I'm simply raising the issue that it is hard to judge.

And many people are confused about the current judging system in singles. Hence why we have so many of these COP vs. 6.0 debates.
 

carriecmu0503

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Oh, of course. But it doesn't happen as often as people fall on jumps (thank god). Problem of judging remains. (Also, falling on solo twizzles should be even rarer, since you don't have a partner to crash into... or a partner to stay in synch with to determine which team did better).

Again, go try a twizzle before you dismiss them.The difference between great twizzles and ones that are just okay is stark. There are many qualities on which to judge solo dance and the quality of the program. Also, there are just as many judging issues in the other disciplines. Jumps are not the only thing in freestyle; why do the judges both to mark the other elements if they are "indistinguishable?"
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I never said twizzles were easy. I said solo dance poses unique problems in judging, because it lacks certain elements that are present in ice dance. And the "other elements" are not indistinguishable in singles. The audience can tell how fast and well-centred a spin is, for instance. They can tell if a jump is landed lightly, or if the air position is straight or wonky.

I support the growth of solo dance. Don't lump me in with NMURA (who is, of course, entitled to his/her opinion, but it's not an opinion I share).
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Frankly, solo dance will be kind of a dump site for singles skaters who can't compete due to weak jumping ability yet physically unsuitable for pairs or ice dance. Not so many "fans" would be interested in such a "discipline".
 

aims

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Hey, it'll be great to see 'dancers' like Daisuke Takahashi or Akiko Suzuki as solo dancers. I love their programs even without the jumps!
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Exactly. Twizzles are a LOT harder than they look. Elena and Nikita lost both the European and World Championships this year because they missed the twizzles. In the case of worlds, they missed the podium all together because of their mistake with twizzles.



The "average fan" can't tell if a jump was done well or not (proper edge, full rotation, etc)
"But the "average fan" can tell if you stood up or not."

One could argue that it is really confusing when someone "stood up" on all their jumps, and yet gets a really low technical score. Standing up on the jump isn't even half the battle. Correct takeoff edge and full rotation, which the average fan knows nothing about, are just as important. A "stood up" "triple" can actually net someone almost no points if they get lots of deductions on it, deductions that cannot be identified by most people watching. And yet, people watch. If you have no interest in learning about solo ice dance, that is fine. I just ask people not be so dismissive/ flippant about it, especially when clueless about the discipline.

Twizzles are actually pretty easy in the grand scheme of things (every decent skater should be able to execute them in all directions -- although maybe not everyone can do it with the level features like jumping into a twizzle or keeping a hand on the skate). Synchronized twizzles however is MUCH more difficult, and that's the part which messes up many dance teams.
 

aims

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 9, 2013
Hey, it'll be great to see 'dancers' like Daisuke Takahashi or Akiko Suzuki as solo dancers. I love their programs even without the jumps!
In addition, would love to see Stephane and Jeffrey in the mix. But then, I guess the discipline would end up with 'retired' skaters who could still 'move' but not jump as before...
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
In addition, would love to see Stephane and Jeffrey in the mix. But then, I guess the discipline would end up with 'retired' skaters who could still 'move' but not jump as before...
This sounds like a pro competition. :think:
 

Components

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
I often read some people want to see artistry and complaining about falling in jumps, too many jumps etc. So probably this single/solo dance can be a category to satisfy this group of viewers/fans...artistry rather than athletics.

People complain because they expect more from elite athletes. They'd complain if they went to a gymnastics competition and almost every gymnast fell off the beam in Event Finals as well. That's normal. No one wants to see a splat fest, especially now that you have to pay even to watch decent streamed coverage without having to hunt for a Latvian feed you can't understand these days (or being a cable/satellite subscriber, and their broadcasts are usually distilled and/or run after you've known the results for hours)...

I would not pay to see a Solo Dance event, personally, and I don't see how they're going to be able to add Ladies and Men's Solo dance into the schedule at ISU championships. All of that costs money, a lot of it.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Afaik, there are no efforts to include solo dance at ISU championships.

However, the most watched ice skating video is still Willow Smith's Whip My Hair, which isn't that far from a solo dance performance. And people watch DWTS and SYTYCD, and that's just dance. Synchro worlds sold out in Boston, and it had no real jumps.

If solo dance attracted better and more charismatic skaters, it could well find an audience. It just wouldn't necessarily be the same audience as singles or pairs IMO. ;) I'd watch.
 

concorde

Medalist
Joined
Jul 29, 2013

Sorry I disagree. Solo ice dance is in its "still developing" stages. Its following is much smaller than the free skate/ couples ice dance following and I would not say that either of those have huge followings (outside of the Olympics).

I enjoy watching the girls practice their routines (we have several at our rink who have medaled at Nationals); however, I would never pay money to watch the competition. I have watched some "solo" competitions that are the qualifies for the Nationals, but after about the 5th competitor, I have gotten bored. Sorry!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Sorry I disagree. Solo ice dance is in its "still developing" stages. Its following is much smaller than the free skate/ couples ice dance following and I would not say that either of those have huge followings (outside of the Olympics).

I thought carriecmu0503 was talking about participation in the sport, not "following" by people outside the sport.

The participation has to come first.

Fans will only be interested in it at the highest skill level -- and, as dorispulaski notes, if the athletes are charismatic performers, since ice dance, solo or partnered, is about performance as much as technique and most fans couldn't care less about technique.

Skaters with the talent and commitment to reach the highest skill levels will most likely only choose to devote the training time to reaching those skill levels if they foresee rewards for doing so.

Prestigious championships would be one incentive, but as I suggested earlier the ISU is not likely to institute a world championship from the top down before a participant base is built from the bottom up.

Until that happens, and enough years go by that enough talented skaters have put in the time to reach those levels, it won't be spectator sport for casual fans. But that doesn't mean that the hundreds potentially thousands of less talented or less dedicated or just younger/newer to the sport skaters who want to participate, or the hundreds or thousands (but not millions) of diehard ice dance fans who want to follow it, should be denied the opportunity. If the sport doesn't exist at grassroots levels now, it will never reach elite levels in the future.

Opportunities to perform in shows, for money or maybe TV fame, could be another incentive to develop the skills to a high level, but that would be show business, not sport, even if shows were structured in the form of a contest/competition.
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
I'm sorry but I prefer to watch a skater with jumps and dance basis instead of a dance solo. I don't find interesting this kind of skating or, in better words, I don't think it has the potential to attract, it's too limited.... so why not a jump contest too? :confused2:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The Broadmoor Summer Competition includes a jump competition. It is a lot of fun, and it is available for on-line viewing.
 
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