SP/LP: Combined number of quads | Page 2 | Golden Skate

SP/LP: Combined number of quads

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Replying to CanadianSkaterGuy's post here:

Well, you're talking about it being a good strategy points-wise. I'm talking about performances I'd like to see, and my conclusion is that I don't want to see more failed quad attempts. I don't, personally, find anything impressive about "attempting" five quads if you fail on three of them. At the end of the day, you still only completed two clean quads over someone else who planned three quads and completed all three. And you've likely got a crappier performance as well because of all the falls/stumbles/hand-downs. Of course, I have no medals to hand out, so skaters aren't exactly going to listen to me. :laugh:

But even in terms of points, attempting more quads isn't always a good idea. You could end up expending so much energy on the quads that you end up missing the other elements. You can see this from someone like Javi (who is probably the best current quad jumper)--landing more quads than his competitors but losing because he messed up something else.

I dunno, maybe I'm too old-school. I love quads but I think they should be high-risk, high-reward. I feel like the low-risk, high-reward COP has... almost ruined quads for me. It's not exciting anymore when you know that a skater can go down on a quad and still be fine. There's nothing impressive about being a risk-taker anymore, because frankly there's not enough risk in the scores. When going down on a quad is fairly okay, of course everybody and their pet cat (or pet Godzilla) attempts the quad.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Maybe Michael Jordan's physical ability plus Kevin Reynolds' rotation speed, it makes a quint possible.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Replying to CanadianSkaterGuy's post here:

Well, you're talking about it being a good strategy points-wise. I'm talking about performances I'd like to see, and my conclusion is that I don't want to see more failed quad attempts. I don't, personally, find anything impressive about "attempting" five quads if you fail on three of them. At the end of the day, you still only completed two clean quads over someone else who planned three quads and completed all three. And you've likely got a crappier performance as well because of all the falls/stumbles/hand-downs. Of course, I have no medals to hand out, so skaters aren't exactly going to listen to me. :laugh:

But even in terms of points, attempting more quads isn't always a good idea. You could end up expending so much energy on the quads that you end up missing the other elements. You can see this from someone like Javi (who is probably the best current quad jumper)--landing more quads than his competitors but losing because he messed up something else.

I dunno, maybe I'm too old-school. I love quads but I think they should be high-risk, high-reward. I feel like the low-risk, high-reward COP has... almost ruined quads for me. It's not exciting anymore when you know that a skater can go down on a quad and still be fine. There's nothing impressive about being a risk-taker anymore, because frankly there's not enough risk in the scores. When going down on a quad is fairly okay, of course everybody and their pet cat (or pet Godzilla) attempts the quad.

I fundamentally believe that skaters should take calculated risks. It's no fun to see a skater constantly go for an element that they miss 99% of the time, but it's also not fun to see skaters play it safe either.

I think men's skating is at a point where all men should be attempting 2-3 quads in their FS (and consider learning and attempting 2 different quads in their SP), if they want to be atop the World podium. It's been well over a decade that skaters have competed 2 (or more) quad freeskates, and it's been over a decade that new skaters to adapt to the new scoring system. It is far more challenging, but that's what makes the sport exciting. I don't want to see clean competitions with no quads... that's what the 80's/90's are for, or exhibition skates. It's the risk that makes skating watchable as a sport, and quads (plural) are a part of that now.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I don't want quadless competitions either. As you said, that's so 80s. :laugh:

I think men's skating is at a point where all men should be attempting 2-3 quads in their FS (and consider learning and attempting 2 different quads in their SP), if they want to be atop the World podium.
This is what I don't understand, or at least can't agree with. Could you explain to me why men's skating is at the point where people should be attempting 5 quads? The top skaters are struggling to hit 3 quads--Chan did this, what, once last season, and Hanyu never. Fernandez does more quads, but he often messes up the other jumps and only does one triple axel. Chan won Olympic silver with a step-out in the SP, one clean quad + five clean triples in the LP, and no axel jump at all. Ten won bronze with a bad SP and a one-quad LP. And there have been plenty of competitions in the past four years that have been like this. Competitions Chan won with deservedly with falls because everyone else was worse.

If everyone's suddenly running around with five quads, great, all the power to them! But I have a feeling I'm not going to get 5-quad LPs. I'm going to get splatfests. Why should we go up to a field that can barely hit 3 quads, and suddenly expect them to do five? Innovation happens naturally--it cannot be forced.
 

HanDomi

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
and Hanyu never.


Hanyu landed 3 quads in Finlandia :yes:


I like watching quads especially from Hanyu (4T) and Fernandez (4S). I hope Kovtun will be doing 2x 4T in LP, because when I am seeing him doing sal my face is :unsure: :biggrin:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I don't want quadless competitions either. As you said, that's so 80s. :laugh:


This is what I don't understand, or at least can't agree with. Could you explain to me why men's skating is at the point where people should be attempting 5 quads? The top skaters are struggling to hit 3 quads--Chan did this, what, once last season, and Hanyu never. Fernandez does more quads, but he often messes up the other jumps and only does one triple axel. Chan won Olympic silver with a step-out in the SP, one clean quad + five clean triples in the LP, and no axel jump at all. Ten won bronze with a bad SP and a one-quad LP. And there have been plenty of competitions in the past four years that have been like this. Competitions Chan won with deservedly with falls because everyone else was worse.

If everyone's suddenly running around with five quads, great, all the power to them! But I have a feeling I'm not going to get 5-quad LPs. I'm going to get splatfests. Why should we go up to a field that can barely hit 3 quads, and suddenly expect them to do five? Innovation happens naturally--it cannot be forced.

I don't think 5 should be expected, but one quad attempt in the SP and two quad attempts in the FS should be standard - at least if you want to make it onto the world podium.

All top level skaters should also be working on competing two different quads as well. They might not be competition ready or the most consistent, but now that many men have mastered a single type of quad, the field should be taking it to a whole new level. You've got tons of skaters in the past and present who have landed two different quads in a freeskate, so that should be the barometer. About 5 years from now, I anticipate we would be seeing 2-different-quad SPs as well as 3-quad LPs (or at least 2 quads and 2 axels LPs), if you're looking to be top 3 in the world.

By "5-quads" I mean 2 in the SP and 3 in the LP -- not 5 quads in the LP! 5 quads in the LP is a bit too ambitious, and yes, definitely lends itself to a splatfest. :laugh:
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Hanyu landed 3 quads in Finlandia
I stand corrected. Still, my point remains: most of the field haven't even gotten 3 quads safely tucked away.

They might not be competition ready or the most consistent, but now that many men have mastered a single type of quad, the field should be taking it to a whole new level.
But they haven't mastered it. :bang: Most of them still attempt it and fall. Chan has one type of quad and a terrible triple axel, and he still dominated the field for four years. The men today can barely meet the three-quad standard, let alone five. 2014 Worlds is promising but I don't want to harbour too much hope, lest I be let down.

You've got tons of skaters in the past and present who have landed two different quads in a freeskate, so that should be the barometer.
Tons? Who? Goebel and Fernandez are pretty much the only ones with two relatively consistent quads. Reynolds, Amodio, Hanyu, Honda, Joubert, and Kovtun "can" do two quads, but I wouldn't say they're anywhere close to mastering both (or either, in some cases). I'm probably forgetting someone here, but it's definitely not "tons."

I'd rather see someone complete two beautiful quads of the same type rather than attempting two different quads, but being flawed 99% of the time. I don't want to see stagnation, but going too far, too fast isn't any better. A house without a foundation will blow away. ;)

By "5-quads" I mean 2 in the SP and 3 in the LP -- not 5 quads in the LP! 5 quads in the LP is a bit too ambitious, and yes, definitely lends itself to a splatfest.
Well, of course, I wasn't referring to that either. Too implausible at this point to even discuss. You'd need three different quads to be able to do that without violating Zayak, and pretty much no one has done three different quads in competition (except Mroz?).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Zhang/Reynolds/Fernandez/Kovtun/Hanyu/Goebel/Joubert/Honda/Klimkin have all done at least one program with two different quads landed.

Also, I said they landed it, not mastered it. There are plenty of skaters who haven't mastered triple axels (e.g. Chan/Lambiel) but they still attempt it. If skaters only did elements they've mastered, then you wouldn't even get skaters trying any quad (as many of the top men have yet to master them). I don't expect most of the men to have mastered 2 quads, considering most have to master even one type, but they should still be comfortable enough to compete two different quads (obviously the risk is always there when competing quads).

A man doing 2 quads of the same type is fine, but I think men should be challenging themselves to try another quad. Just like for a while it was fine for a man to just do 2 triple axels and avoid the quad, but they should slowly attempt to bring the quad into their repertoire. By 2018/2020, we should be seeing the men at least committed to getting two different quads and starting to bring that into competition (18 years after Goebel landed 3 quads at the Olympics, mind you). I would not like to see a men's competition in 2018 where a FS with just 1 quad and 2 triple axels was as ambitious as any top 10 skater wanted to be.

I would hope by 2018 the planned/attempted FS layouts are something like: 1 quad and 2 axels for top 10. 2 quads and 1 axel for top 8. Either 2 quads + 2 axels or 3 quads + 1 axel for top 5, and 3 quads 2 axels as a podium standard. No quad attempt or just one quad attempt that was failed = out of the top 10.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Of course no one's going to hit a quad 100% of the time. No one's even going to hit a triple toe loop 100% of the time. I'd say Hanyu has mastered the quad toe, for instance, even though he has fallen on it. He hasn't mastered the quad salchow because his falls vastly outweigh how many he lands.

There are plenty of skaters who haven't mastered triple axels (e.g. Chan/Lambiel) but they still attempt it.
They kinda don't have a choice, because axel jump is required. Plenty of times, Lambiel's so-called triple axel ends up as a double anyway. Also, the triple axel has been a mainstay since the late '80s. The quad salchow, not so much.

A man doing 2 quads of the same type is fine, but I think men should be challenging themselves to try another quad.
I think men should be challenging themselves when they are capable of it. Falling all the time is not impressive.

I would hope by 2018 the planned/attempted FS layouts are something like: 1 quad and 2 axels for top 10. 2 quads and 1 axel for top 8. Either 2 quads + 2 axels or 3 quads + 1 axel for top 5, and 3 quads 2 axels as a podium standard. No quad attempt or just one quad attempt that was failed = out of the top 10.
See, that's where you and I differ: You think in terms of what you'd like to see the men planning. I think in terms of what I'd like to see the men landing. I'd like to see the three medallists landing at minimum 1 quad in the SP + 2 quads in the LP. And not falling in more than one program. I couldn't care less whether they planned three or planned five. If they can do two types of quads, great, but I'm not fussed about it. I want to see quad combinations better rewarded anyway.

I would hope all the top 10 can do two triple axels, whether they do five quads or zero. One triple axel is mainly for the huge anomalies who are no good at axel jumps. There's only about one podium contender per generation with that problem. I hope it doesn't become such a general problem in 2018 that we have more than 1 skater in the top ten who struggles with the triple axel.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I agree that falling all the time isn't impressive, but if a skater has shown ability to at least land a quad toe, in this day and age, there's no reason they shouldn't be doing two attempts of that in a FS. If they can land a 4S an 4T in practice, then they should be willing to attempt both (and ideally 3 quads) in a program - by 2018, that is.

Just as you hope all the top 10 can do two triple axels (or feels comfortable enough to try two triple axels), I would hope the top 10 would be comfortable enough to do two quad attempts in a FS by 2018, with several pushing to try a different quad and thus do 3 quad attempts in their FS. Obviously it's a huge risk, but so is trying a 3-3 in the SP for the ladies when a well executed 3-2 gets almost the same points as a 3-3<.

It's understandable that every man may have problems with their 3A. Hanyu himself missed a few last season and he's arguably the most consistent with his 3A (having hit 19/22 - 86%... singles at SC and Finlandia and a touchdown at Finlandia). Kovtun's 3A success rate is actually better -- he hit 16/18 - 88% - clean 3A's last season, having only stepped out of his 3A at CoR and singled his axel at the GPF. Although obviously Hanyu's is far superior in quality.
 

HanDomi

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
I think for sure we can expect in quad department good things from Yuzuru and Javier in coming seasons. If Yuzuru will go for 3 quads propably for season after next one it will be propably 3 different ones, which at ones scares me and excites :biggrin:. Maybe Javier will bring finally other quads to competition, as Hanyu said Javier also did loop ald lutz.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Well, I'm with you (both of you) in the sense that I want to see more quads landed. What I don't want is people with no chance in hell of landing 5 quads (or even 3 quads) trying it because of the minimal fall penalty, thus contributing to more splatfests.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well, I'm with you (both of you) in the sense that I want to see more quads landed. What I don't want is people with no chance in hell of landing 5 quads (or even 3 quads) trying it because of the minimal fall penalty, thus contributing to more splatfests.

Agreed. It's not fun if somebody just rotates the quad and splats just to pick up more points than a clean 3F, 3Z or whatever. I honestly don't think most men would be so stupid to endanger themselves like that by trying elements that they have minimal success rate with in practice. Hanyu landed many 4S in practice, his issue is being able to replicate that in competition on a consistent basis (I believe the same goes for Chan's triple axel which he was reputedly much more consistent with in practice than competition).
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Basically, I want skaters to get what they can do down pat before trying more difficult things. 5-quad skates are likely to resemble someone going hunting blind-folded, shooting bullets everywhere just hoping they'd hit something. Hanyu's been successful with the three quads only once this season (thank you for the info, HanDomi), so I'm not sure if adding an extra quad would be a good idea, when he already struggles with his current program. (His quad loop did look spectacular in video though, so I wouldn't mind, say, having him replace the 4S with 4Lo).

I don't blame the skaters so much as the rules though. There needs to be a greater fall penalty to discourage this type of thing.

The Patrick Chan triple axel situation is different from Hanyu's 4S (or some potential 5-quad Kovtun program). Patrick has no choice but to do the triple axel. There's no strategy about it. And in his defense, he mainly just steps out--doesn't go sprawling across the ice most of the time.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I looked at the quad attempts from last season and looked at how many were well-executed. For the purposes of this exercise, I counted any ratified quad with a GOE of at least -.5 (basically evan) or up.

Among the top 24 SB men:

The following skaters landed three or more quads with decent execution at one competition the GP/Euros/4CC/Olympics/Worlds:
Patrick Chan (Trophee Eric Bompard (3), GPF (3))
Tatsuki Machida (Skate America (3), Worlds (3))
Javier Fernandez (Euros (3), Worlds (3)
Maxim Kovtun (Cup of China (4), Rostelecom Cup (3)
Konstantin Menshov (NHK Trophy (3))

And the follow has landed at least two:
Yuzuru Hanyu (Trophee Eric Bompard, GPF, Olympics, Worlds)
Sergei Voronov (NHK, Euros)
Takahito Mura (4CC)
Michel Brezina (GP, Euros, Olympics)
Nam Song (4CC)
Brian Joubert (Olympics)

The following men in the SB 24 landed at least one quad with solid GOE in ALL ISU GP/Championships:
Patrick Chan
Tatsuki Machida
Sergei Voronov
Yan Han
Max Aaron

If you give one competition as an outlier you can add:
Yuzuru Hanyu (Skate Canada he got -GOE on all his quads)
Javier Fernandez
Nobunari Oda
Denis Ten
Nam Song
Tomas Verner
Brian Joubert

That means out of the top 24 SB, about half can land a quad in every competition somewhat consistently. And on a good day, about half the field can land two quads. The percentage of SB 24 who can land three or more, however, goes down to 21 percent. And the percentage of the field that can do so consistency is pretty much nil. (At best, we got Patrick Chan who did it in half of the four major ISU competitions, GPs/GPF/Olympics).

Conclusions? You need a two quads to podium and at least one to be in the top 10 for the most part (Jason Brown was a notable exception and that came with a poorly skated competition). However, I don't think we're there yet as far as having 3 or more quads being the standard among the men. So those who CAN do 3 or more quads consistency would certainly be way ahead of the pack with the caveat that they LAND EVERYTHING ELSE.
 
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Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Conclusions? You need a two quads to podium and at least one to be in the top 10 for the most part (Jason Brown was a notable exception and that came with a poorly skated competition). However, I don't think we're there yet as far as having 3 or more quads being the standard among the men. So those who CAN do 3 or more quads consistency would certainly be way ahead of the pack with the caveat that they LAND EVERYTHING ELSE.
Yes, quad is the must but having 3 quads doesn't guarantee you a win because you MUST execute everything else. Which is why Timothy Goebel was not the gold medalist at Salt Lake.

But anyways, it's true this is the time go quad or go home. :p

Putting 2 quads in a SP, in my mind, might not help raising the quality overall performance, if it's just for the sake of CoP then I understand.

If Javi can do it consistently (putting 2 quad in SP), then other guys can try it as well. But Javi is the best quad jumper at the moment (with rumors that he can land 4 different quads already), so if he can't do it, I don't think other guys have much chances, either.

Let's just wait and see.
 
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