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Thread: SP/LP: Combined number of quads

  1. #46
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    Oh of course it will affect it to some degree. But that's the gamble you take to attain more points. Why try triple axels in the second half when it would probably affect other elements of the program not positively (compared to reeling off easily triples)... because it gets you a bonus.

  2. #47
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    A bit off-thread (sorry), but I vaguely remember there being an unofficial 'jumping competition' ages ago. I wonder if having such 'discipline' as a separate category might be interesting. There are other winter olympic sports that judge only one single jump performances, such as ski jumps and aerial jumps. Why not figure skating jumps? Separate those skaters who are more 'jump-inclined' from the others and give them a chance to show their stuff on a competitive level without them worrying about their (weaker) artistic performance. Just thinking...

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Same for Kovtun who is trying to put 5 quads in both of his program. We all know what happened to Kevin Reynolds. Javi has more chances of success, in my humble opinion, since he has much much better jumps than Kovtun both in term of quality and quantity.
    It allowed him to win 4CC?

    Javier has slightly greater quantity of jumps, but if Kovtun tries 3 quads and 2 triple axels and learns a lutz-salchow or flip-salchow sequence, that's one extra axel and Kovtun would have the edge. Of course Kovtun has less quality than Javier, but is slightly more consistent on his non-quad elements -- certainly more consistent than Javi on the 3A. Both are unfortunately "prone" (I use quotes for Kovtun since it's hard to say after just one GP season) to popping/doubling quads or triples, which is holding back their TES score from challenging Hanyu.

  4. #49
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    If Javier wants to attempt 4 different quads, more power to him. However, they shouldn't just be for the heck of it. He should have at least somewhat of a handle on these quads in practice (even 20% of the time) to deem it competition worthy. Otherwise it could be another Olympics disaster if he triples them.
    ...I wouldn't recommend him trying the quads in competition if he's only 20% successful in practice. In competition, they become exponentially harder because of nerves + the demand of the overall program. Also, as Meoima said (and as I've said in the past), a quad isn't something you do and it's done, over with, no effect on the rest of the program. The second quad becomes harder than the first, because you've already expended energy doing the first (this, btw, is the answer to your earlier question--why do people with a decent quad toe like Denis Ten opt not to do a second one. Because it's harder than the first. ).

    Also, after that second quad, you'll still need to do your other jumps, which also become harder due to the energy you expended on the quads (see Lambiel's flawed second quad + 3Lz fall at the Torino Olympics). If you translate that into four different quads, with some of them being only 20% successful in practice, what you're likely going to get is an epically sloppy program filled not just with failed quads, but failed triples.

    So, no, you're right, Javi shouldn't attempt 4 different quads in the LP. I suggest he shouldn't attempt 4 quads even if they're over 20% successful in practice. I'd say every one of the quads should be at least 50% successful for this to be anything less than a nightmare, due to the snowballing effect I outlined above.

  5. #50
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It allowed him to win 4CC?
    But not in other competitions. and I mean it's plural.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Javier has slightly greater quantity of jumps, but if Kovtun tries 3 quads and 2 triple axels and learns a lutz-salchow or flip-salchow sequence, that's one extra axel and Kovtun would have the edge. Of course Kovtun has less quality than Javier, but is slightly more consistent on his non-quad elements -- certainly more consistent than Javi on the 3A. Both are unfortunately "prone" (I use quotes for Kovtun since it's hard to say after just one GP season) to popping/doubling quads or triples, which is holding back their TES score from challenging Hanyu.
    It's not only Kovtun who will try to max out his BV, Javi also tries his best, too. Gachinski will also try his best, too. And other guys as well. Someone with powerful jumping ability like Han Yan will also try to do the same. So it's not Kovtun vs Javi but all the guys vs each other.

    The thing is, you can put down the highest BV you could ever think of but the rate of your success, on the other hand, is not always guaranteed. You can land the quad, with ugly entrance and unbalance landing with - GOE, it's your choice after all. It's your choice if you cost too much energy on quads and let it affect your whole program, too.

    Brian Joubert is not a rookie, his longevity has proved it all, and he knows how hard it is to integrate quads into a program. If you want to do it, welcome, no one will stop you. So yes, try as many quads as you want, but don't complain when the judges put you down if your program suck overall.

  6. #51
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    Javi doesn't max out his BV as well as he can. He only attempts one triple axel and the triple he repeats is a 3S, not a 3A/3Z/3F. Along with 2 quads in his SP, I'd also like to see him switch the 3S to a 3Z or something (it's also less risky should he triple one of his 4S and potentially Zayak his final 3S).

    Gachinski also doesn't max out his BV, particularly with his 2A+2A sequence which makes absolutely no sense. Its BV is 5.81 in the second half... compare that to 11.77 points for a 3Z-1Lo-3S. Gachinski could even do an easy 3T+2T (or 3F+2T or 2A+3T for more points) and it would be worth more than a 2A-2A sequence. Gachinski also doesn't do any quad or 3A in the 2nd half. On occasion, he's omitted the 3F (maybe because he lips), and he doesn't max the levels on his spins/footwork.

  7. #52
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Javi doesn't max out his BV as well as he can. He only attempts one triple axel and the triple he repeats is a 3S, not a 3A/3Z/3F, which is leaving about 1-2 points on the table. He also has only done one quad in his SP in the past (although people are saying he will try two this season).

    Gachinski also doesn't max out his BV, particularly with his 2A+2A sequence which makes absolutely no sense. Its BV is 5.81 in the second half... compare that to 11.77 points for a 3Z-1Lo-3S. Gachinski could even do an easy 3T+2T and it would be worth more than a 2A-2A sequence. Gachinski also doesn't do a 3F or any quad or 3A in the 2nd half.
    I mean next season. "Will try to do the same" doesn't ring a bell? All guys will try it since they all want to win. Especially Javi since he is only getting older and this year GPF will be in his home soil. So if he wants any big title, it's this season and the next.

    I believe all the top guys can execute the hardest BV in practice. Like Javi can land 4 types of quads in practice. But the ability to bring it out in the competition is a different matter.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Javi doesn't max out his BV as well as he can. He only attempts one triple axel and the triple he repeats is a 3S, not a 3A/3Z/3F. Along with 2 quads in his SP, I'd also like to see him switch the 3S to a 3Z or something (it's also less risky should he triple one of his 4S and potentially Zayak his final 3S).

    Gachinski also doesn't max out his BV, particularly with his 2A+2A sequence which makes absolutely no sense. Its BV is 5.81 in the second half... compare that to 11.77 points for a 3Z-1Lo-3S. Gachinski could even do an easy 3T+2T and it would be worth more than a 2A-2A sequence. Gachinski also doesn't do a 3F or any quad or 3A in the 2nd half.
    That's sort of the point though. Three quads is EXHAUSTING (especially with one of them in the second half). Sure it would be great to do 2 3A, but I think it's smart to not force it. I do think his layout is dumb for zayaking reasons. Basically if he pops his second 3S and doesn't do another jump to replace the final 3S, he's toast (and that's exactly what happened at the Olympics).

    I mean from a strategy standpoint, it may make more sense for Javi to build a bigger lead with 2 quads in the SP then try to force a second 3A in the FS.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    That's sort of the point though. Three quads is EXHAUSTING (especially with one of them in the second half). Sure it would be great to do 2 3A, but I think it's smart to not force it. I do think his layout is dumb for zayaking reasons. Basically if he pops his second 3S and doesn't do another jump to replace the final 3S, he's toast (and that's exactly what happened at the Olympics).
    You would think Brian Orser would prevent that. I mean, yeesh, if you're going to go for the easy final jumping pass, at least do a 2A - 3.3 points (instead of 4.2 points) is better than no points. He needs to step it up though... at least put a 2nd lutz if you're not going to put in a second axel. Considering the lutz is usually done as part of a 3-3 combo in his SP, and his 3F is done as part of a series with a 3S, he should feel comfortable reeling off either as a solo jump to close his program. Maybe not in the past due to fatigue, but now he should be aware of the risk of that final 3S, having cost him an Olympic bronze.

  10. #55
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    I think Kurt Browning said (on CBC) that Javi would've had enough points to win bronze if only he'd done a freaking double salchow in place of his Zayak'd 3S? Anyway, I think Ten's SP was overscored... Javi deserved bronze even with his mistakes.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I think Kurt Browning said (on CBC) that Javi would've had enough points to win bronze if only he'd done a freaking double salchow in place of his Zayak'd 3S? Anyway, I think Ten's SP was overscored... Javi deserved bronze even with his mistakes.
    It's true, a 2S would have just eked him into 3rd.

    I do think Ten deserved bronze because he was one of the few guys to turn out a not completely horrible FS (the 3F being minor and the 2A being the only glaring error and it wasn't a fall). Frankly I think Ten was underscored in the LP for PCS. But yes, he was overscored in the SP with the fall on the quad and no 3-3. IMO, Javi was also generously scored in his SP considering he had errors on 2 jumping passes. Under 6.0, I'm sure Liebers and Brown would have placed ahead of him.

    Here's hoping Fernandez is the first to land 5 quads. I hate how quad technicians get pigeon holed into being "technical skaters" and I love that Javi shows you can do both (and still have a solid program).

  12. #57
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Here's hoping Fernandez is the first to land 5 quads. I hate how quad technicians get pigeon holed into being "technical skaters" and I love that Javi shows you can do both (and still have a solid program).
    Same here, fingers cross for Javi to win big titles this season. if he is eager to land a new quad, like the loop or the luzt, then I hope he will do well and get the record!

  13. #58
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    I give Ten credit for his "not completely horrible FS," as you put it. But I can't get behind raising his PCS (I can, however, get behind lowering Hanyu and Chan's PCS for their sloppy FS, so I guess that's raising Ten's PCS in a relative sense). To be honest, almost all of Ten's skates put me to sleep. And Javi's LP wasn't horrible either. In fact, he was one of the few people who landed two quads and wasn't completely horrible on everything else (the judges slaughtered Joubert with levels and PCS, and slaughtered Reynolds with PCS and downgrades). Considering Ten's short, I think Javi deserved bronze. Zayak rule should just downgrade his 3S into a 2S, not give him 0 points. Especially considering the huge points Hanyu and Chan were racking up with falls/step-outs, the Zayak punishment is kinda ridiculous.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I mean next season. "Will try to do the same" doesn't ring a bell? All guys will try it since they all want to win. Especially Javi since he is not getting older and this year GPF will be in his home soil. So if he wants any big title, it's this season and the next.

    I believe all the top guys can execute the hardest BV in practice. Like Javi can land 4 types of quads in practice. But the ability to bring it out in the competition is a different matter.
    He's not getting older? What's his secret? I want some of whatever's making him not get older :-)

  15. #60
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsadaFanBoy View Post
    He's not getting older? What's his secret? I want some of whatever's making him not get older :-)
    Lol, sorry I mean he is not getting any younger. if Javi's not getting older, I also want to know his secret, too.

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