SP/LP: Combined number of quads

Sandpiper said:

Zayak rule should just downgrade his 3S into a 2S, not give him 0 points. Especially considering the huge points Hanyu and Chan were racking up with falls/step-outs, the Zayak punishment is kinda ridiculous.

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That seems like the perfectly logical thing to do. Why can't that be the protocol instead? :no:

Because the rules are stooopid! (I laugh, but it's true).

Sandpiper said:

Because the rules are stooopid! (I laugh, but it's true).

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It's not like the rule has never been stoooooooooopid!

Well, under 6.0, from what I understand from people who responded to me in from the stupid questions thread, Zayak was mandatory -1. Which gave the judges more flexibility to respond to different scenarios, since people rarely got 6.0 technical merit. Browning won Worlds over Petrenko despite Zayaking, because he did more than Petrenko. Kulik lost Worlds to Eldridge by Zayaking, since he did less than Eldridge (one less combo, iirc). So at least in terms of zayaking, 6.0 was less stooopid.

Fernandez should have done a 3Toe at the end of his program! That always should have been his training plan if he tripled out on one of the Quad Sals. Yes, though, the rule is stupidly implemented in CoP.

However, I still probably don't feel he should have finished above Ten or Takahashi if he had gotten more credit for the 3Sal at the end. It wasn't a great performance and his SP was a mess; he was overscored in that segment and should have been placed 8th in the SP.

Blades of Passion said:

Fernandez should have done a 3Toe at the end of his program! That always should have been his training plan if he tripled out on one of the Quad Sals. Yes, though, the rule is stupidly implemented in CoP.

However, I still probably don't feel he should have finished above Ten or Takahashi if he had gotten more credit for the 3Sal at the end. It wasn't a great performance and his SP was a mess; he was overscored in that segment and should have been placed 8th in the SP.

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He probably wasn't used to training a 3T at the end because his second quad normally is planned in combination with a 3T, and at the end of a program, he would risk zayaking (unless he actually remembered he did a 4-2 about 4 minutes earlier).

I agree that he was overscored in the SP. I get that most of the guys had errors, 3rd place with errors on two jumping passes is pretty unacceptable. I would have had Joubert, Liebers, and maybe even Brown ahead of him. Takahashi and Fernandez should have been slightly behind them, but were saved on the PCS mark. Overall however, Fernandez deserved 4th. I certainly don't think he should have placed behind Takahashi, given he actually landed quads. Takahashi was fortunate to place as high as 6th with only one 3A in his FS and no quad (even <) in either program.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

He probably wasn't used to training a 3T at the end because his second quad normally is planned in combination with a 3T, and at the end of a program, he would risk zayaking (unless he actually remembered he did a 4-2 about 4 minutes earlier).

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Tripling out on a Quad Sal automatically means he is zayaking in his program layout. Hence why I said his training plan always should have been a 3Toe at the end of the program of he Tripled a Quad Sal. That would give him two 3Sals and two 3Toes in the program, which fits into the requirements.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I certainly don't think he should have placed behind Takahashi, given he actually landed quads. Takahashi was fortunate to place as high as 6th with only one 3A in his FS and no quad (even <) in either program.

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You can't keep saying "he didn't do a quad, he shouldn't be allowed to place above people who did." So what, Fernandez did quads. That's not all there is to a program. He left out a lot of jump content later on and Takahashi had better spins, better footwork, better skating skills, better performance.

If you look at all of their jumps, it basically comes down to Takahashi doing a 3Lutz+3Toe and solo 3Lutz compared to Fernandez doing 4Toe and 4Sal. That's less than a 5 point advantage for Fernandez. Surely someone having better footwork, better spins, and better PCS should be able to make up 5 points.

I love Dai (far, far more than I love Javi), but I don't think he deserved to beat Javi overall. Yes, his programs were beautiful and he looked relatively clean. But he pretty much proved to the judges that he couldn't do a quad at all (just like Chan kinda proved he couldn't do an axel jump... pretty much the reason he lost to Hanyu despite Hanyu making bigger errors). Did the rules over-punish Dai for his two-footed UR quads? Absolutely. But the rules over-punished Javi's Zayaking too. In the end, I think the placements were fair.

Hmm, I need to rewatch Javi's SP. I still think Ten's was more overscored, but I admit my memory's fuzzy. I maintain that Javi's LP was quite solid though, and didn't deserve to be punished as harshly as it was. Argh, I hate having these kinds of debates when everyone was so bad, and we're just trying to remember who wasn't as bad.

Okay, maybe Javi didn't deserve bronze. Joubert did. At least he landed most of his difficult jumps and skated two solid programs. He didn't choose the right LP, but at least he didn't bring back the Matrix! (Yes, instead of pulling for the guy who came in 4th, I shall now pull for the guy who came in 13th!).