Who will push the technical edge in Ladies FS?

aromaticchicken said:

Correction: none of the jumps (no matter if it's a triple axel or a quad lutz) will be relevant if someone attempts and/or lands them if they don't *win* competitions with it. Otherwise why push the technical score if you're still winning on GOE?

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I think you hit the note spot on. If it got to the point where clearly you can't win just based on the current jump layouts, people will be motivated out of necessity. Just look at the men's competition post the Lysacek era. Everyone is going for a quad, it is virtually impossible to win without one unless you have everyone else go splat fest. If you have a somebody who lands the 3A and consistently start winning and leaves everyone else in the dust, I believe a lot more ladies will start revving up. Asada wasn't quite as consistent and probably had some headcase issue that limited her. Overall, you still need to be decently good at other elements and your mental strength in order to win.

Sandpiper said:

^Agreed. I wouldn't say Brandon Mroz pushed the technical side of FS simply 'cause he did quad lutz. Whereas Yuna's 3-3 has been instrumental to pushing the 3-3 in ladies FS. I think Mao had a certain impact because of some rule changes she created, but it remains to be seen if anyone after her will attempt 3A.

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Sandpiper - curious, what other rule changes did Mao bring about?

Sandpiper said:

^Agreed. I wouldn't say Brandon Mroz pushed the technical side of FS simply 'cause he did quad lutz. Whereas Yuna's 3-3 has been instrumental to pushing the 3-3 in ladies FS.

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Truth. And if there's one thing I like about IJS it's that it only rewards technical skill fully when it is executed cleanly (through GOE), not just barely squeaked on by. Yes it means that 'progress' in competitive jump attempts doesn't evolve as quickly, but when it *does* evolve and things like the men's quads and the ladies 3-3 become common, they're executed so much more cleanly. (barring events like the sochi men's splatfest, of course [emoji12]).


I'd rather watch clean 3-3 from ladies than more sad, underrotated, and/or twofooted triple axel attempts "just because" (cough Kimmie meisner)

^I actually disagree with you there, because I feel like COP has come to reward people who land some beautiful jumps and then splat on others. I'd rather have someone skate the entire program clean even if the jumps aren't all pretty. I'd like to see people try to save wonky jumps instead of just giving it up as -GOE. This is more of a problem in the men's field than the ladies, though.

aromaticchicken said:

Sandpiper - curious, what other rule changes did Mao bring about?

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I'm certainly not the expert here, but isn't Mao the reason women who do 3A in the SP are allowed to not do the required 2A? In theory, this allows them to have an all-triple SP. Of course, it didn't benefit Mao much because she doesn't have a stable 3-3.

Also, post-Vancouver, GOE (Yuna's strength) became less important relative to BV (Mao's strength), though that change had to do with the men's field as well.

I think though the ability to save a jump that may have gone bad is underrated. Especially if saving a jump...slightly sloppy but landed...leads to the rest of the program being saved. It is my opinion that people tend to judge programs based on the individual jumps more often than not as opposed to how well the entire program was delivered. Sometimes I think it's alright to award more GOE as a program goes on or builds throughout. I guess I just don't think it's necassary to judge a jump always as seperate from everything else presented in the program. That may lead to people :scratch: when they see the protocols and compare it to other skaters but to me at least it makes sense. At least under certain circumstances.

^That's why I personally think any jump landed "6.0 clean" (AKA fully rotated, on one foot, no touchdown with hand, no major turn-out) deserves just plain ol' 0 GOE, while any type of hand-down/step-out on a solo jump deserves automatic -3. -2 for very minor two-foots that can barely be detected. As you've stated in the past, best to be generous to combos when they're already underrewarded.

Anyway, my issues lie mainly with the men's field, which isn't the topic of the thread. The ladies, generally, don't go splat as much. Thank goodness!

Sam-Skwantch said:

I hope Mirai lands a 3a and soon so we can stop talking about skaters who aren't going to be around to push the technical edge of skating. My money is on Adelina still but who knows really. So many girls are at the forefront of the technical limitations of the sport that nothing would really surprise me.

Does anyone even keep tabs on Maé-Bérénice Méité? With her power I could see her doing both 3a and quad jumps.

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I love MBM and I believe she's thoroughly underrated. Sure, she's not the most elegant skater out there but she skates with conviction and power, and really knows how to sell the feeling of a program.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I love MBM and I believe she's thoroughly underrated. Sure, she's not the most elegant skater out there but she skates with conviction and power, and really knows how to sell the feeling of a program.

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Really. MBM should be awarded more.

Tompson said:

Really. MBM should be awarded more.

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It's never going to happen, unfortunately. France isn't going to politic for her as much as the other disciplines. And her style will not likely be overhauled to satisfy the judges. She's not going to be in some frilly dress and skating to Swan Lake. And thank god for that. I hope she gets her 3-3 more solid and maybe even has the skate of her life to earn a GP medal this year, but that's high hopes. Oh well, hopefully she knows she's got fans who love her.

Sandpiper said:

I feel like COP has come to reward people who land some beautiful jumps and then splat on others. I'd rather have someone skate the entire program clean even if the jumps aren't all pretty.

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This is a legitimate problem with COP, that everything is so points-driven that the judges and skaters are downplaying the performance aspect. It's very much gone from doing things "well" to doing things "hard". Spins, for example, are generally unwatchable except for a few skaters who can do the difficult positions and do the spin well (Julia comes to mind). A skater is much better off doing a difficult element in a mediocre fashion rather than a less difficult element beautifully. I'd like to see that change.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

It's never going to happen, unfortunately. France isn't going to politic for her as much as the other disciplines. And her style will not likely be overhauled to satisfy the judges. She's not going to be in some frilly dress and skating to Swan Lake. And thank god for that. I hope she gets her 3-3 more solid and maybe even has the skate of her life to earn a GP medal this year, but that's high hopes. Oh well, hopefully she knows she's got fans who love her.

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I'm a fan! She is much more impressive in person. Her jumps are huge. Also she just seems to love skating and exudes joy. Love that mindset and attitude.

drivingmissdaisy said:

This is a legitimate problem with COP, that everything is so points-driven that the judges and skaters are downplaying the performance aspect. It's very much gone from doing things "well" to doing things "hard". Spins, for example, are generally unwatchable except for a few skaters who can do the difficult positions and do the spin well (Julia comes to mind). A skater is much better off doing a difficult element in a mediocre fashion rather than a less difficult element beautifully. I'd like to see that change.

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I'm okay with that. It's better for skaters to do things harder and push the technical envelope, and over time, more will start doing things well. If every skater elected to do double axels "well" and nobody attempted something "hard" like triple axels (with many ugly, unwatchable attempts), the sport wouldn't be what we see it today.

That being said, it's still an aesthetic sport, and skaters should still make it look good. If a position or transition is sloppy or ugly just for the sake of doing it, then the skater needs to re-consider incorporating it in their program.

I think with GOE, skaters can do easier elements well and score better than skaters who do harder elements mediocrely. Maybe the math isn't quite right yet, but it's the right idea.

Spins might be generally unwatchable because they don't match the phrase of the music (because, god forbid, they last longer than 4 rotations!), but at least they test the skater moreso than in the past. Not many skaters can do a cross-foot properly or the change of edge camel with good control, but it's nice to see that they're actually trying these, whereas in the past, they would do a couple basic positions with just 1-2 rotations each and call it a day.

Yes, there are some ugly, contorted spins (and I hate the 8-revolution level), but overall, there are a LOT better spins currently than in the past... skaters actually hold their positions and try positions beyond the basic ones. I mean, look at how many sit variations there are. In the 90's a sit spin was done the same by everyone.

And judges are cracking down on things like traveling and centering and speed. Under 6.0, if a skater did just a 1-rotation camel in their combo spin, judges never really cared, nor did they care if a skater had a unique position. Now, skaters get credit for harder difficulty, better/worse execution, and actually have spin requirements that need to be adhered to (e.g. positions needing to be maintained for 2 rotations).

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I mean, look at how many sit variations there are. In the 90's a sit spin was done the same by everyone.

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Truth! I was watching a bunch of videos from the 80s and 90s today and had almost forgotten how simple the spins were. It was almost boring! Sure some are ugly today, but you would've never gotten some of the crazy inventive stuff like Caroline zhangs pearl spin or Jason Browns incredible stuff or maos consistent bielmann or even mirais new lay back without the new point system rewarding those more difficult spin positions.

Mrs. P said:

I'm a fan! She is much more impressive in person. Her jumps are huge. Also she just seems to love skating and exudes joy. Love that mindset and attitude.

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I agree with you on this. She is a nice change to the bunch when we watch her performance. One thing for sure she is one of a kind. I like her attitude too especially where she wants to fix her artistic side even it is something she find hard to grab.

BTW Mrs. P I hope you live not that close to the fire area. It sounds pretty bad. I hope you safe and not effect by the events.

BusyMom said:

I agree with you on this. She is a nice change to the bunch when we watch her performance. One thing for sure she is one of a kind. I like her attitude too especially where she wants to fix her artistic side even it is something she find hard to grab.

BTW Mrs. P I hope you live not that close to the fire area. It sounds pretty bad. I hope you safe and not effect by the events.

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Thanks for asking, BusyMom. I am definitely OK, but there are many who are not. Some of the major fires are about 1.5 hours north of me. The weather is cooling down and there's some rain that's supposed to come, so I'm hoping that will help.

Back on the topic at hand, I think that's the same reason I like Max Aaron, despite his weaknesses. He's someone I appreciated more after in-person. His speed is great and I like his attack. And yes, I admire him trying to not be jump-jump-jump, like Mae Bernice.

drivingmissdaisy said:

"A skater is much better off doing a difficult element in a mediocre fashion rather than a less difficult element beautifully. I'd like to see that change."

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I am afraid this was exactly the issue with CoP. It tends to reward those who do the "beautiful" things which unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective, is always subjective. Is it more justified to reward someone for executing a simpler element that is pretty while penalising the one who went for the tougher one but didn't look as lovely? Take Mae Berenice Meite, the French skater which had been discussed in this thread. She is not the classic lovely skater and not everyone appreciates her skates as she isn't the conventional princessy type. But should that be a reason to mark her down as she is not so lovely? Lets face it, figure skating is a sport and while beauty and elegance makes for TV and audience delight, I personally think pushing the technical edge is what makes sports different from Bolshoi theatre. CoP has its problem, I am realistic about that. I for one prefer to reward the big jumps and combos better but impose bigger penalties for falls and execution failure. GOEs also need to be made clearer, e.g. connecting steps into an element get rewarded for GOE but also get rewarded under transitions in PCS. This has to be fixed one way or the other. By putting higher rewards for elements and bigger penalties for splats, skaters are challenged to go for it only if confident and well trained. That is part of pushing the boundaries of the sport. If we keep on wanting beautty, then it is better to watch the exhibitions and stars on ice.

Mrs. P said:

Thanks for asking, BusyMom. I am definitely OK, but there are many who are not. Some of the major fires are about 1.5 hours north of me. The weather is cooling down and there's some rain that's supposed to come, so I'm hoping that will help.

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Glad to hear. I hope the situation will resolve soon.

This is sort of related to this thread, but if Gracie Gold is planning on doing two triple-triple combinations in her free skate, does anyone have an idea about which ones she'll try? I'm assuming she'll keep her 3Z-3T and if she does another 3T combo, she'll have to abandon the 2A-3T. Maybe she'll do 3Z-1/2 loop-3S or 3F-1/2 loop-3S? She had the latter combo in her program at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season but abandoned it in favor of better consistency. I don't really see her doing any combos with a 3Lo on the back end...

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I love MBM and I believe she's thoroughly underrated. Sure, she's not the most elegant skater out there but she skates with conviction and power, and really knows how to sell the feeling of a program.

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I love her, too. What a pity her scores were often not as high as she actually deserves. She is very athletic and a confident performer.

amc987 said:

This is sort of related to this thread, but if Gracie Gold is planning on doing two triple-triple combinations in her free skate, does anyone have an idea about which ones she'll try? I'm assuming she'll keep her 3Z-3T and if she does another 3T combo, she'll have to abandon the 2A-3T. Maybe she'll do 3Z-1/2 loop-3S or 3F-1/2 loop-3S? She had the latter combo in her program at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season but abandoned it in favor of better consistency. I don't really see her doing any combos with a 3Lo on the back end...

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That's an interesting question. Obviously a 3Z+3T. But her lip on her 3F+3T basically reduces her GOE (unfortunately the GOE reduction is applied to both jumps in the combination, not just the lip..). I guess her salchow is probably her best bet to do a 3-3 other than her lutz (a 3L+3T is difficult for many skaters... I think I've only seen a handful of men go for it). And no, she doesn't have the ability to do a 3L on the back end.

I think her best strategy is to continue trying the 2A+3T, and clean up her 2A technique to ensure that can happen.