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Thread: Who will push the technical edge in Ladies FS?

  1. #211
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's never going to happen, unfortunately. France isn't going to politic for her as much as the other disciplines. And her style will not likely be overhauled to satisfy the judges. She's not going to be in some frilly dress and skating to Swan Lake. And thank god for that. I hope she gets her 3-3 more solid and maybe even has the skate of her life to earn a GP medal this year, but that's high hopes. Oh well, hopefully she knows she's got fans who love her.
    I'm a fan! She is much more impressive in person. Her jumps are huge. Also she just seems to love skating and exudes joy. Love that mindset and attitude.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    This is a legitimate problem with COP, that everything is so points-driven that the judges and skaters are downplaying the performance aspect. It's very much gone from doing things "well" to doing things "hard". Spins, for example, are generally unwatchable except for a few skaters who can do the difficult positions and do the spin well (Julia comes to mind). A skater is much better off doing a difficult element in a mediocre fashion rather than a less difficult element beautifully. I'd like to see that change.
    I'm okay with that. It's better for skaters to do things harder and push the technical envelope, and over time, more will start doing things well. If every skater elected to do double axels "well" and nobody attempted something "hard" like triple axels (with many ugly, unwatchable attempts), the sport wouldn't be what we see it today.

    That being said, it's still an aesthetic sport, and skaters should still make it look good. If a position or transition is sloppy or ugly just for the sake of doing it, then the skater needs to re-consider incorporating it in their program.

    I think with GOE, skaters can do easier elements well and score better than skaters who do harder elements mediocrely. Maybe the math isn't quite right yet, but it's the right idea.

    Spins might be generally unwatchable because they don't match the phrase of the music (because, god forbid, they last longer than 4 rotations!), but at least they test the skater moreso than in the past. Not many skaters can do a cross-foot properly or the change of edge camel with good control, but it's nice to see that they're actually trying these, whereas in the past, they would do a couple basic positions with just 1-2 rotations each and call it a day.

    Yes, there are some ugly, contorted spins (and I hate the 8-revolution level), but overall, there are a LOT better spins currently than in the past... skaters actually hold their positions and try positions beyond the basic ones. I mean, look at how many sit variations there are. In the 90's a sit spin was done the same by everyone.

    And judges are cracking down on things like traveling and centering and speed. Under 6.0, if a skater did just a 1-rotation camel in their combo spin, judges never really cared, nor did they care if a skater had a unique position. Now, skaters get credit for harder difficulty, better/worse execution, and actually have spin requirements that need to be adhered to (e.g. positions needing to be maintained for 2 rotations).

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I mean, look at how many sit variations there are. In the 90's a sit spin was done the same by everyone.
    Truth! I was watching a bunch of videos from the 80s and 90s today and had almost forgotten how simple the spins were. It was almost boring! Sure some are ugly today, but you would've never gotten some of the crazy inventive stuff like Caroline zhangs pearl spin or Jason Browns incredible stuff or maos consistent bielmann or even mirais new lay back without the new point system rewarding those more difficult spin positions.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I'm a fan! She is much more impressive in person. Her jumps are huge. Also she just seems to love skating and exudes joy. Love that mindset and attitude.
    I agree with you on this. She is a nice change to the bunch when we watch her performance. One thing for sure she is one of a kind. I like her attitude too especially where she wants to fix her artistic side even it is something she find hard to grab.

    BTW Mrs. P I hope you live not that close to the fire area. It sounds pretty bad. I hope you safe and not effect by the events.

  5. #215
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BusyMom View Post
    I agree with you on this. She is a nice change to the bunch when we watch her performance. One thing for sure she is one of a kind. I like her attitude too especially where she wants to fix her artistic side even it is something she find hard to grab.

    BTW Mrs. P I hope you live not that close to the fire area. It sounds pretty bad. I hope you safe and not effect by the events.
    Thanks for asking, BusyMom. I am definitely OK, but there are many who are not. Some of the major fires are about 1.5 hours north of me. The weather is cooling down and there's some rain that's supposed to come, so I'm hoping that will help.

    Back on the topic at hand, I think that's the same reason I like Max Aaron, despite his weaknesses. He's someone I appreciated more after in-person. His speed is great and I like his attack. And yes, I admire him trying to not be jump-jump-jump, like Mae Bernice.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    "A skater is much better off doing a difficult element in a mediocre fashion rather than a less difficult element beautifully. I'd like to see that change."
    I am afraid this was exactly the issue with CoP. It tends to reward those who do the "beautiful" things which unfortunately or fortunately depending on your perspective, is always subjective. Is it more justified to reward someone for executing a simpler element that is pretty while penalising the one who went for the tougher one but didn't look as lovely? Take Mae Berenice Meite, the French skater which had been discussed in this thread. She is not the classic lovely skater and not everyone appreciates her skates as she isn't the conventional princessy type. But should that be a reason to mark her down as she is not so lovely? Lets face it, figure skating is a sport and while beauty and elegance makes for TV and audience delight, I personally think pushing the technical edge is what makes sports different from Bolshoi theatre. CoP has its problem, I am realistic about that. I for one prefer to reward the big jumps and combos better but impose bigger penalties for falls and execution failure. GOEs also need to be made clearer, e.g. connecting steps into an element get rewarded for GOE but also get rewarded under transitions in PCS. This has to be fixed one way or the other. By putting higher rewards for elements and bigger penalties for splats, skaters are challenged to go for it only if confident and well trained. That is part of pushing the boundaries of the sport. If we keep on wanting beautty, then it is better to watch the exhibitions and stars on ice.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Thanks for asking, BusyMom. I am definitely OK, but there are many who are not. Some of the major fires are about 1.5 hours north of me. The weather is cooling down and there's some rain that's supposed to come, so I'm hoping that will help.
    Glad to hear. I hope the situation will resolve soon.

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    This is sort of related to this thread, but if Gracie Gold is planning on doing two triple-triple combinations in her free skate, does anyone have an idea about which ones she'll try? I'm assuming she'll keep her 3Z-3T and if she does another 3T combo, she'll have to abandon the 2A-3T. Maybe she'll do 3Z-1/2 loop-3S or 3F-1/2 loop-3S? She had the latter combo in her program at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season but abandoned it in favor of better consistency. I don't really see her doing any combos with a 3Lo on the back end...

  9. #219
    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I love MBM and I believe she's thoroughly underrated. Sure, she's not the most elegant skater out there but she skates with conviction and power, and really knows how to sell the feeling of a program.
    I love her, too. What a pity her scores were often not as high as she actually deserves. She is very athletic and a confident performer.

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by amc987 View Post
    This is sort of related to this thread, but if Gracie Gold is planning on doing two triple-triple combinations in her free skate, does anyone have an idea about which ones she'll try? I'm assuming she'll keep her 3Z-3T and if she does another 3T combo, she'll have to abandon the 2A-3T. Maybe she'll do 3Z-1/2 loop-3S or 3F-1/2 loop-3S? She had the latter combo in her program at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season but abandoned it in favor of better consistency. I don't really see her doing any combos with a 3Lo on the back end...
    That's an interesting question. Obviously a 3Z+3T. But her lip on her 3F+3T basically reduces her GOE (unfortunately the GOE reduction is applied to both jumps in the combination, not just the lip..). I guess her salchow is probably her best bet to do a 3-3 other than her lutz (a 3L+3T is difficult for many skaters... I think I've only seen a handful of men go for it). And no, she doesn't have the ability to do a 3L on the back end.

    I think her best strategy is to continue trying the 2A+3T, and clean up her 2A technique to ensure that can happen.

  11. #221
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It's never going to happen, unfortunately. France isn't going to politic for her as much as the other disciplines. And her style will not likely be overhauled to satisfy the judges. She's not going to be in some frilly dress and skating to Swan Lake. And thank god for that. I hope she gets her 3-3 more solid and maybe even has the skate of her life to earn a GP medal this year, but that's high hopes. Oh well, hopefully she knows she's got fans who love her.
    I enjoy MBM very much, even though am generally on the side howling for more elegance. CSG, your earlier post re: her "conviction and power" sums her up very well. She's got a dynamic style of her own and I hope she continues to develop and refine it. Crossing fingers!

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That's an interesting question. Obviously a 3Z+3T. But her lip on her 3F+3T basically reduces her GOE (unfortunately the GOE reduction is applied to both jumps in the combination, not just the lip..). I guess her salchow is probably her best bet to do a 3-3 other than her lutz (a 3L+3T is difficult for many skaters... I think I've only seen a handful of men go for it). And no, she doesn't have the ability to do a 3L on the back end.

    I think her best strategy is to continue trying the 2A+3T, and clean up her 2A technique to ensure that can happen.
    She can do two 3Lz-3T combinations, maybe even put one of them to the second half like this girl did
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RASzpJH5I4
    Or even 3Lz-3T-2T and 3Lz-3T. I think it's her safest bet, definitely better than learning 3S-3T in case her 2A isn't solid enough anymore. As for 3Lo-3T, it's a rare combination, but some skaters do it. Radionova for example after mistake on her 3Lz
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iScY-BZS4Z4

    As for 3?-half loop-3S combination, IIRC Gracie tried it but it didn't really work. So my bet is two 3Lz-3Ts

  13. #223
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    It worked fine, but she had stamina problems later in her program doing 3Lz+3T and 3F+1Lo+3S

  14. #224
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    If Gracie (or anyone without the 3A) does two 3-3 combinations, that leaves her two jumping passes with no triple. Is that an improvement?

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by pohatta View Post
    If Gracie (or anyone without the 3A) does two 3-3 combinations, that leaves her two jumping passes with no triple. Is that an improvement?
    That's a good point. These two programs have exactly the same base value.

    3Lz+3T
    3Lz+3T
    3F
    3Lo
    3S
    2A+2Lo+2T
    2A

    3Lz+3T
    3Lz
    3F+2T
    3F
    3Lo
    3S
    2A+2Lo+2T

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