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Thread: Who will push the technical edge in Ladies FS?

  1. #106
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pec0 View Post
    As preceding comments pointed out that 7 triples did not beat the Queen. Korean judges and friends Cinq can make use of anonymous judge system. Obviously trend is simpler lovelier and prettier.
    I think you are allowing a retired competitor to reach out from beyond the (figure skating) grave and haunt your dreams. Time to let it go. The past is past, the future beckons.

  2. #107
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Some people say they want the artistry to dominate so I think even 5 triple program is enough for them. As for me, I want more jumps but not too many or else those jumps would ruin the other elements. I love it very much when skaters jump, but I think they are too severed on the UR and Edge calls, instead on the falls. I mean UR and Edge calls only matter when they are too obvious, if it's just slightly then why 30% to 70% deduction when overall it doesn't affect the performance too much? I mean if they deduct like -3 points on a fall on jumps, maybe there will be less falls. Instead they decide to punish UR and Edge!!!

  3. #108
    Custom Title humbaba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    Can this be done on ice? Maybe not the ladies but men? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=803439213014184
    Actually, that leap reminds me of the big delayed single axles skaters used to do way back when. Loved those jumps. Although I don't recall anyone doing a complete split position while they delayed.

  4. #109
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Why not? I think some men already leap that high on their death drops.
    Yep, but the most interesting and beautiful part is the complete split position. I would love to see this.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanshilar View Post
    Huh do you have a link for that? I wonder how the Russians do their math. I haven't seen any ladies' 2A's that are remotely close to the height of Mao's 3A. Although some of the numbers may change when I do a more detailed analysis, using air time as a proxy for height, for the Olympic FS so far it looks like Mao's 3A is around 17/25 = 0.68 seconds (counting number of frames in the air from a video running at 25 FPS), while Adelina's was 14/25 = 0.56 seconds. Adelina's, Yuna's, and Carolina's 3Lz's (the first jump of the program) were all about 15/25 = 0.60 seconds, by comparison. Mao's SP 3A where she fell was around 33/50 = 0.66 seconds, to give you an idea of how much height (or rotation, etc.) she has.

    Granted, Mao's own 2A later in the program was also 14/25 = 0.56 seconds, so it's certainly possible that if Adelina puts a 3A (or 2A) at the beginning of her program it will have similar height as Mao's 3A, seeing as how their 2A's in the middle of the program had pretty much the same height (Yuna's and Carolina's were smaller). But that's significantly different than saying that Adelina's 2A in the middle of her program was higher than Mao's 3A at the top of hers.

    Yes I've read that a 3A is not necessarily higher than a 2A (the additional revolution comes from getting into the rotation position earlier as well as having a tighter position -- Mao's rotation speed in her 3A is slightly faster than Yulia's in her 3Lz IIRC), but it seems like for the ladies so far this holds up; Mao's 3A is simply higher than any other jump in the Olympics that I've measured so far.
    Interesting analysis! Do you have a comparison of their flip jumps (for Adelina, Yuna, Mao and Carolina).

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Some people say they want the artistry to dominate so I think even 5 triple program is enough for them. As for me, I want more jumps but not too many or else those jumps would ruin the other elements.
    And, speaking for myself, as I suggested earlier I want skating skills to dominate.

    I want to reward good jumps and difficult jumps; similarly good spins and difficult spins, and various pair moves. I want to reward a good balance of different kinds of technical skills, although I think "well-balanced" in the free skate could be defined more flexibly than is currently the case. I want to reward skaters for performing well (which may or may not have anything to do with the number or severity of visible errors), for skating well-constructed programs that express the music well.

    I want to penalize technical errors both obvious to everyone and obvious only to the trained eye. Those that disrupt the performance should be penalized in PCS as well as TES; those that are more nitpicky might not affect PCS at all.

    What I don't want is for any one factor -- not jumps and not "artistry" -- to be the sole factor that will always determine who wins. I want skaters to have some flexibility to play to their own individual strengths, while demonstrating enough competence in other areas to appear well rounded.

    Sometimes the performances I enjoy most are not the performances I think deserve to win.

    Oh, and I most like seeing good jump difficulty woven into a complex and musical program.

    Exceptional jump difficulty can be exciting, but if it's at the expense of everything else I don't think it should be the determining factor.

    But who deserves to win will vary depending on all the factors, not just who did the hardest jump.

  7. #112
    Custom Title chapis's Avatar
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    Mao did 3axel but she never forgot the artistic part. She one of the most artistic figure skaters, so that is not excuse.

  8. #113
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chapis View Post
    Mao did 3axel but she never forgot the artistic part. She one of the most artistic figure skaters, so that is not excuse.
    True, but Mao is one of the greatest skaters of all time. Not many can legitimately aspire to match her.

  9. #114
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Who is with Adelina?

  10. #115
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Those girls who could do 3Lz-3T at the age of 11 have not reached puberty yet. So the general tendency is unknown. I estimate more than 30 ladies can do 3Lz-3 or 3F-3 worldwide. This number is close (a little less) to men's quad jumpers.
    depends on how you call a 3lz-3t... the quality and consistency.. and of course the severe edge call on the lutz and the under-rotated 3 toe.. but then again.. if you have judges at the tech panel that will overlook the proper technique.. who really cares..

  11. #116
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    depends on how you call a 3lz-3t... the quality and consistency.. and of course the severe edge call on the lutz and the under-rotated 3 toe.. but then again.. if you have judges at the tech panel that will overlook the proper technique.. who really cares..
    Lol. You just posted this exact sentiment the other day. How many ways can you reword it?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Was Midori Ito really quick in the air? (I just find it hard to believe because of the leg wrap). It seemed like she just jumped so high--higher than 95% of the men in the field--that it really didn't matter what her rotation/technique was.
    Well looking at the video here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FiPOgClYWw

    It seems like Midori was in the air for 21/30 = 0.7 seconds (the video was in 30 FPS), although it's somewhat blurry so it's somewhat hard to tell exactly which frame she lifted off the ice and which frame she landed. So it looks like she was somewhat higher than even Mao on the 3A.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    Can this be done on ice? Maybe not the ladies but men? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=803439213014184
    What I found interesting is that like me, he does his pirouettes in the clockwise direction but his jump in the counterclockwise direction. Don't know if that's common.

    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    Interesting analysis! Do you have a comparison of their flip jumps (for Adelina, Yuna, Mao and Carolina).
    Well again keep in mind it's still somewhat preliminary so some of the numbers may change as I refine my technique (though obviously, should not change by that much). For the triple flip, the air times were:

    Adelina: 15/25 = 0.60 s (for the solo), then 14/25 = 0.56 s (for the combo in 2nd half)
    Yuna: 14/25 = 0.56 s
    Mao: 14/25 = 0.56 s (for the combo in 1st half), then 14/25 = 0.56 s (for the combo in 2nd half)
    Carolina: 15/25 = 0.60 s

    What I don't like about these preliminary results is that realistically, the error is +-1 frame, which means +-0.04 seconds (the frames were from a 25 FPS video), which means that they're actually too close to tell, somewhat. So it's technically not accurate to say for example that "Adelina's and Carolina's 3F was higher than Yuna's and Mao's", although it would be accurate to say "when better analysis is done, it's more likely that Adelina's and Carolina's 3F will be higher than Yuna's and Mao's".

  13. #118
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    Midori Ito did 10 2As in a row when she was young. Surreal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sns1G0OdtBo

  14. #119
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Thank you Vanshilar.

    If Adelina can clean her jumps up and maintain her current power I think she has a reasonable chance at upping at least her technical ability. Maybe even break the boundaries of what is currently seen as impossible.

  15. #120
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Lol. You just posted this exact sentiment the other day. How many ways can you reword it?
    It's not just the other day, it's like a repetitive ad you see on tivi every time you turn it on. you know, beating a dead horse. Very boring and it's already worn-out.

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