Is Gold solid as numero uno with USFS?

MK's Winter · Jul 12, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
My issue with Mirai is that in order to skate cleanly she has to resort to slashing her choreo. Kostner has been written off for inconsistency but her artistry and commitment to her program/content is always there. I'm hoping Mirai turns a corner next season though.

Even though the programs weren't 100% I saw a lot of improvement in her programs at Broadmore . Some jumps look like they are getting re-worked,they also looked higher. Choreography is good and she emotes more. That's a lot of improvement for June. She seems to have a renewed attitude and approach for this season. If she keeps it up she could challenge. That's all.

I am also interested to see what Gracie will do for her long. I hope Lori can push her artistically. She does have the best jumps of the US ladies.

Polina is great technically as well. I would like to see her work on selling her programs more. She is young though.

I am hoping Ashley sticks with Shea Lynn for choreography. I really loved the pink Floyd program.

pangtongfan · Jul 12, 2014

MK's Winter said:
Never say never. Carolina Kostner has been written off so many times. Mirai has all the goods and I love her programs. She could surprise this year.

Carolina was never written off from never winning a medal at worlds again. Even at her all time low in 2009-2010, everyone always knew she could recover and win atleast one world medal in the future. Mirai has never come close to a world medal, and was written off from ever getting one atleast 2 years ago. Heck people are starting to write Ashley's chances of ever getting one off, and she is in a much better place moving forward than Mirai is despite that I believe Mirai once upon a time (as in many years ago) was far more talented and had far more potential than Ashley even at her peak ever had.

pangtongfan · Jul 12, 2014

Meoima said:
At least Kostner did win WC in 2012, while Cohen never. And without the controversy at Sochi, Kostner could have had a silver or even Gold (according to some people), not just bronze since she was so clean.

In a fair world Kostner would unquestionably be the gold or silver medalist from Sochi. Either gold, or silver barely behind Kim. Although Mao should have beaten both ladies in the LP, she would of course be no threat to them in the overall results even with fair judging.

Sequinedream · Jul 12, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Carolina was never written off from never winning a medal at worlds again. Even at her all time low in 2009-2010, everyone always knew she could recover and win atleast one world medal in the future. Mirai has never come close to a world medal, and was written off from ever getting one atleast 2 years ago. Heck people are starting to write Ashley's chances of ever getting one off, and she is in a much better place moving forward than Mirai is despite that I believe Mirai once upon a time (as in many years ago) was far more talented and had far more potential than Ashley even at her peak ever had.

That's a null and void conversation about Mirai. She's only had the opportunity to go to Sr. Worlds once (09-10) and she placed 7th. (06-07/07/08 she medalled at Jr. Worlds silver one year and bronze the other). Caro has been every year since 2002. And her results have been all over the place. One year she won a bronze then the next season at worlds landed in 12th place. She also skates for a country where she doesn't have much competition in getting to Worlds, unlike Mirai.

UnsaneLily87 · Jul 12, 2014

Meoima said:
At least Kostner did win WC in 2012, while Cohen never. And without the controversy at Sochi, Kostner could have had a silver or even Gold (according to some people), not just bronze since she was so clean.

Well obviously they're not exactly the same. But I think their careers were similarly successful, more or less. Many world medals, a championship (kostner: worlds cohen: gpf), olympic medals. Never the absolute best but close.

pangtongfan · Jul 12, 2014

Sequinedream said:
That's a null and void conversation about Mirai. She's only had the opportunity to go to Sr. Worlds once (09-10)

Actually what you just said already speaks more volumes to my point than anything I said, so thanks. :laugh:

Mirai fans at this point should just cheer for her to make it another U.S world team, which believe me will be no easy feat and a HUGE achievement if she manages it.

PS- the U.S does not have some super level of competition and hasn't for years. The last U.S world medal was in 2006 for crying out loud and it took them until 2014 to send 3 women to a worlds/Olympic again. If you aren't good enough to make it out of the U.S you aren't good enough at that point to do squat all at the world level. It is pretty simple. Not that Mirai not even coming close to qualifying for a grand prix final in many years (as it is she has never qualified for one anyway), and being unable to come close to beating 3 triple Julia or 3 triple Mao (COR last season, NHK the one before) with her absolute best performances she can manage these days, didn't already make that obvious enough.

Like I said 2010-2012 was her big window for potential glory, especialy post Vancouver. Her window of world level glory, which she did have the talent for which is why it is sad, is long closed. Good for her sticking at it though and I will be cheering for her to surpise and make another U.S world team, which again will be a huge achievement and victory for her if she somehow manages it.

Sequinedream · Jul 12, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Actually what you just said already speaks more volumes to my point than anything I said, so thanks. Mirai fans at this point should just cheer for her to make it another U.S world team, which believe me will be no easy feat and a HUGE achievement if she manages it.

PS- the U.S does not have some super level of competition and hasn't for years. The last U.S world medal was in 2006 for crying out loud and it took them until 2014 to send 3 women to a worlds/Olympic again. If you aren't good enough to make it out of the U.S you aren't good enough at that point to do squat all at the world level. It is pretty simple. Not that Mirai not even coming close to qualifying for a grand prix final in many years (as it is she has never qualified for one anyway), and being unable to come close to beating 3 triple Julia or 3 triple Mao (COR last season, NHK the one before) with her absolute best performances she can manage these days, didn't already make that obvious enough.

Like I said 2010-2012 was her big window for potential glory, especialy post Vancouver. Her window of world level glory, which she did have the talent for which is why it is sad, is long closed. Good for her sticking at it though and I will be cheering for her to surpise and make another U.S world team, which again will be a huge achievement and victory for her if she somehow manages it.

So you're saying that Italy is more competitive than the US as far as someone getting to Worlds? That's incredibly laughable.

And as far as you saying the last World medal for the US was in 2006. Are you speaking just ladies? Because US dance teams have been on the podium since then every year and in 2009 Lysacek took Men's World Gold.

Sandpiper · Jul 12, 2014

@sequinedream
How are the dance/men results relevant to Mirai, when she's not competing in those disciplines?

UnsaneLily87 said:
Well obviously they're not exactly the same. But I think their careers were similarly successful, more or less. Many world medals, a championship (kostner: worlds cohen: gpf), olympic medals. Never the absolute best but close.

Yeah, I think Cohen and Kostner were fairly similar in terms of achievement, even if their skating styles are different. Some might say Cohen was more successful since she achieved those results in less time; some might say Kostner was better because she stayed in for so long and battled it out for so many years. I lean on the latter, though I give Cohen credit for her influential ballerina flexibility.

flutzy13 · Jul 12, 2014

noskates said:
That's different than going to Nats your first year in seniors just for the experience, winning a silver medal and skating in the Olympics. She's probably still pinching herself!!!

I don't think she's pinching herself at all. Her quotes after the Boston were something to the effect of I knew I had the hardest planned tech content and that if I landed my jumps, I would have a good chance at top 3. She didn't skate senior in 2014 just for the experience. Maybe she didn't expect to beat Ashley but she was not at all surprised with her performance, her scores or the fact that she ended up on the podium.

FSfan99 · Jul 12, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Carolina was never written off from never winning a medal at worlds again. Even at her all time low in 2009-2010, everyone always knew she could recover and win atleast one world medal in the future. Mirai has never come close to a world medal, and was written off from ever getting one atleast 2 years ago. Heck people are starting to write Ashley's chances of ever getting one off, and she is in a much better place moving forward than Mirai is despite that I believe Mirai once upon a time (as in many years ago) was far more talented and had far more potential than Ashley even at her peak ever had.

I'd say placing first in the SP of her Worlds debut, ahead of Mao Asada, is contrary to this point.

Scovies · Jul 12, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
You know...watching her WC FS earlier today I noticed that the choreo is there and she has nice balletic concepts but where she loses me is the commitment to it. With how crisp and convincing she delivers her technical arsenal, I want to see the same level of commitment to the story or feeling of her programs. The little nuances act like accents do in music but if you don't commit, it almost has a negative effect. Once she gets a better delivery in terms of her choreo I fully expect a thread "Is Polina solid as número UNO with USFS" :yes:

I'm starting to think the choreography in her FS wasn't the best choice for her, even if she does have a nice balletic style. While she still needs some polish, I thought she always had great commitment and attack in her cha-cha SP.

jace93 · Jul 12, 2014

FSfan99 said:
I'd say placing first in the SP of her Worlds debut, ahead of Mao Asada, is contrary to this point.

The problem is that she never reached again that level...

Totentanz · Jul 12, 2014

I still prefer to watch Ashley and Polina instead of Gracie Gold.

MK's Winter · Jul 12, 2014

jace93 said:
The problem is that she never reached again that level...

Many people thought she would never medal at Nationals again either. My point was anything can happen this season. That's all.

Sequinedream · Jul 12, 2014

Sandpiper said:
@sequinedream
How are the dance/men results relevant to Mirai, when she's not competing in those disciplines?

The way pangtongfan stated it, it came off like NO US discipline made medals at Worlds. That's why in my statement back, I asked if they were talking about just ladies or otherwise.

pangtongfan · Jul 12, 2014

Sequinedream said:
So you're saying that Italy is more competitive than the US as far as someone getting to Worlds? That's incredibly laughable.

And as far as you saying the last World medal for the US was in 2006. Are you speaking just ladies? Because US dance teams have been on the podium since then every year and in 2009 Lysacek took Men's World Gold.

No the only thing that is laughable is your implying Mirai would have done really well (eg- be close to medal contention) at worlds anytime from 2011-2014 when she couldn't even make it onto the U.S team over girls barely making top 10 at worlds (or sometimes not even that). It does make sense to mention 7th at worlds in 2010 (and 4th at the Olympics) as the peak she reached, when it is abundantly clear by her failure to qualify over the skaters she couldn't (as well as her international and grand prix results) she would not have even placed as high as 7th any year since then. Hey if you want to make a point out of nothing though, or live in a fantasy world with fluffy clouds be my guest.

Of course it is easier to make it out of Italy to worlds and the Olympics than the U.S, but for a really good skater it very easy in either country the last 8 years to make it, so it is a moot and pointless issue. The only year there is a snowballs chance in hell Kostner would have missed a World or Olympic team in the U.S since 2004 is 2010, and even then only if she didn't have a decent skate at Nationals. In 2009 her skating was a mess much of the time but when the U.S is so weak 3 triple Czisny wins Nationals it doesn't matter. In case you haven't noticed Kostner isn't in the habit of losing to skaters like Wagner, Gold, Flatt, Zhang, Kirk, Emily Hughes, and Nagasu, so qualifying out of the U.S in this period would not be some vast challenge for her.

And yes Einstein I was referring to the ladies only. :laugh:

Sequinedream · Jul 12, 2014

pangtongfan said:
No the only thing that is laughable is your implying Mirai would have done really well (eg- be close to medal contention) at worlds anytime from 2011-2014 when she couldn't even make it onto the U.S team over girls barely making top 10 at worlds (or sometimes not even that). It does make sense to mention 7th at worlds in 2010 (and 4th at the Olympics) as the peak she reached, when it is abundantly clear by her failure to qualify over the skaters she couldn't (as well as her international and grand prix results) she would not have even placed as high as 7th any year since then. Hey if you want to make a point out of nothing though, or live in a fantasy world with fluffy clouds be my guest.

Of course it is easier to make it out of Italy to worlds and the Olympics than the U.S, but for a really good skater it very easy in either country the last 8 years to make it, so it is a moot and pointless issue. The only year there is a snowballs chance in hell Kostner would have missed a World or Olympic team in the U.S since 2004 is 2010, and even then only if she didn't have a decent skate at Nationals. In 2009 her skating was a mess much of the time but when the U.S is so weak 3 triple Czisny wins Nationals it doesn't matter. In case you haven't noticed Kostner isn't in the habit of losing to skaters like Wagner, Gold, Flatt, Zhang, Kirk, Emily Hughes, and Nagasu, so qualifying out of the U.S in this period would not be some vast challenge for her.

And yes Einstein I was referring to the ladies only.

First of all, I never implied ANYTHING about Mirai. I'm not even much of a fan of hers. So, keep on making up things about what you think other people are saying. Lastly, you know nothing of my IQ or my intelligence level (which is quite high), and calling me names isn't getting you anywhere in life or making you win any discussions on this board. But hey, if that's what helps you sleep better at night. :sarcasm::disapp:

karne · Jul 12, 2014

The first time I saw Polina skate I was so impressed. She's really long and gangly and I was expecting a bit of awkwardness as skaters tend to do when they're at the gangly stage, but she was so soft and elegant and graceful in all her movements. And her jumps are so huge and airy which makes me think that when the rest of her body does catch up it's not going to be such a problem.

I don't get the hate on Gracie though. I think she's a lovely skater too. She's just in a different style from Ashley or from Mirai. It's not wrong or bad, it's just different.

Sequinedream · Jul 12, 2014

karne said:
The first time I saw Polina skate I was so impressed. She's really long and gangly and I was expecting a bit of awkwardness as skaters tend to do when they're at the gangly stage, but she was so soft and elegant and graceful in all her movements. And her jumps are so huge and airy which makes me think that when the rest of her body does catch up it's not going to be such a problem.

I don't get the hate on Gracie though. I think she's a lovely skater too. She's just in a different style from Ashley or from Mirai. It's not wrong or bad, it's just different.

I don't understand the hate on any of the top US ladies right now. I think they are all fantastic skaters in their own ways.

pangtongfan · Jul 12, 2014

Sequinedream said:
First of all, I never implied ANYTHING about Mirai.

You were the one who implied my point of Mirai not coming close to a medal since 2010 and not even being considered a potential to ever someday medal anymore after 2012 was unfair since it is supposably oh so hard to make it out of the U.S, and lucky Kostner (who would have cakewalked onto to the U.S world team practically every year, as even with better competition than she gets in Italy she still owns all the U.S girls) didn't have to face that. So you started this discussion, not me. You are also the only one inventing things and implying things I never said since nowhere did I imply it was harder to get out of Italy than the U.S. That was something you invented yourself to bolster your non existent argument.

Is Gold solid as numero uno with USFS?

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