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Thread: Quadruple toe loop

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Fernandez might struggle under 6.0 due to being from Spain, but on the other hand, he is a much, much better performer than any of the Chinese skaters or Kovtun, and will likely get credit on the second mark.

    I don't particularly feel like skaters should be lauded for "trying" a difficult entry unless they actually land the jump. Maybe somewhat lauded for trying an altogether more difficult jump (quad loop, flip, lutz, ect.), but even then I wouldn't be very impressed if they tried it all season and kept falling.

    Anyway, entry is probably on the lowest rung for me in terms of considering jumps. That's what the "transitions" mark is for. I still think Viktor Petrenko, Ilia Kulik, and Brian Boitano had some of the best 3As out there, even if their entries were fairly basic by current standards. On the other hand, Fadeev flew into all his jumps with zero preparation, but I wouldn't say he had the best jumps thanks to aspects of the jump itself, plus his lower consistency (not his fault, considering the injuries, but still).
    No, a jump should not be lauded if it's a failure. But it doesn't change the fact that the skater is at least attempting to transition into the jump, instead of just powering into it. You don't laud a failed attempt, but you could laud an effort a skater makes to up the ante on the entry (and usually adding transitions to precede a jump isn't the critical factor in the jump being a success or not).

  2. #77
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    I will laud skaters for landing a jump with a difficult transition. All else being equal, of course (because no one's going to convince me that Fadeev and Goebel had the best 3As of their generation).

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    I will laud skaters for landing a jump with a difficult transition. All else being equal, of course (because no one's going to convince me that Fadeev and Goebel had the best 3As of their generation).
    Good, then we both agree. That goes back to the original discussion that for a quad toe to be considered the best, a difficult entry is a point of consideration (albeit secondary to things like height and ice coverage and flow on the landing). It's one of the reasons I would hold Hanyu and Chan's quad toes over Yagudin or Plushenko or Stojko. If you can execute a quad with steps preceding it, that means your quad is pretty awesome to begin with. If you need to rely on powering into a quad toe without any preceding steps to maintain the speed, then perhaps it isn't the best out there.

  4. #79
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    Well, at the end of the day, nobody is "wrong" about whose quad toe they prefer. Hanyu, Plushenko, Chan, Goebel... all perfectly respectable choices. I'm a bit about the votes for Sandhu and Stojko, but whatever floats your boat.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Well, at the end of the day, nobody is "wrong" about whose quad toe they prefer. Hanyu, Plushenko, Chan, Goebel... all perfectly respectable choices. I'm a bit about the votes for Sandhu and Stojko, but whatever floats your boat.
    I think Sandhu's is about air position. He has one of the straightest quads. When he hits it, it's actually quite astounding. See 48:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhP3o9bh8uc

    I don't get why Stojko's is one of the best in terms of quality but like I said, he certainly helped pioneer the popularity of the quad and pushed the envelope. Like Plushenko, he had one of the most consistent quads, so obviously when determining who has the "best" quad, the ability to land it reliably is a huge factor.

  6. #81
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    ^Oh, that's a nice better quad than the one Drivingmissdaisy linked to. I still wouldn't put Sandhu's quad anywhere on my list since he couldn't hit it 99% of the time and usually had little flow or height, but again, everyone has their own taste.

    Was Stojko's quad really consistent? I remember him falling or mucking it up... a lot. Granted, many of those falls/muck-ups came post-1998 and the horrible injury he had gone through. Comparison to Plushenko doesn't really stand because Plushenko's quad is of far better quality than Stojko's. I would say Stojko has the most influential quad, though not the best one. And he was consistent on it compared to his contemporaries (Urmanov, Kulik... and Eldredge who somehow stayed in the medal hunt with no quad at all), and could land the quad in combination, which was unheard of at the time.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    ^Oh, that's a nice better quad than the one Drivingmissdaisy linked to. I still wouldn't put Sandhu's quad anywhere on my list since he couldn't hit it 99% of the time and usually had little flow or height, but again, everyone has their own taste.

    Was Stojko's quad really consistent? I remember him falling or mucking it up... a lot. Granted, many of those falls/muck-ups came post-1998 and the horrible injury he had gone through. Comparison to Plushenko doesn't really stand because Plushenko's quad is of far better quality than Stojko's. I would say Stojko has the most influential quad, though not the best one. And he was consistent on it compared to his contemporaries (Urmanov, Kulik... and Eldredge who somehow stayed in the medal hunt with no quad at all), and could land the quad in combination, which was unheard of at the time.
    Stojko had muckups, but yes, his consistency with the quad was greater than most of the field, and of course the first man to land a quad-triple. I agree that he has the most influential one (other than maybe Kurt).

    I agree that Sandhu wouldn't be on my list because he was very inconsistent with it, but I disagree that it lacked height or flow when he did hit it. That being said, Hanyu and Chan are far superior in their quads overall than Sandhu, but Sandhu I still appreciated for how "clean" it looked when he did it right. His quad kinda reminds me of Polina's jumps how straight and lovely the axis is.

  8. #83
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    ^The one you linked to did have good flow and height. The one Drivingmissdaisy linked to, not so much (and the same goes for the rest of his jumps). Still not a good case for Sandhu, imo, not compared to Plushenko/Hanyu/Chan/Goebel (or even Yagudin, Stojko, Joubert, ect.)

    I would actually say Stojko had the more influential quad than Kurt, because Kurt didn't include the quad in his programs on a regular basis, and the rest of the field didn't start quad-jumping until Stojko.

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