Quadruple toe loop | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Quadruple toe loop

BusyMom

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
Agree. I had the pleasure of seeing this jump many times in person.

The explosive height, distance, tightness of rotation made this the perfect 4T. His 4S was more technically correct that Goebel's, too.
Many of Chinese male skaters have a solid jump techniques. I have seen a few of them (but not Chengjiang Li unfortunately). Haijun Gao is one of the best coach in China in my opinion. Not so sure why he has no skaters in the current team.

Their problems are more the artistic sides I suppose. Some Chinese skaters seem uncomfortable interpreting the music. They need to fix their blank expression. Han Yan and Nan Song are getting better in the resent competition though.
 

erasona

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 9, 2014
Just a something I've been thinking about...

Does anyone think about Hanyu's body type and how it affects his jumps? I think he has beautiful jumps in general, and I do think it has a lot to do with his thin frame. Bad comparison, but doesn't he have a similar body to a pre-pubescent kid, basically slim all around, which according to some people is much easier to get a quick rotation going? For that reason, I've always thought that Hanyu had an advantage in his jumps. I find his jumps look "easy" because they are so smooth as opposed to say, Javier's which I find has more power. In that respect, I have a feeling Hanyu might be one of the best jumpers of all time. This is not any sort of fan fawning, but just a prediction based on what he has, which includes a good coach, talent, motivation, strong legs, and a thin frame.

Your thoughts?
 

HanDomi

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Just a something I've been thinking about...

Does anyone think about Hanyu's body type and how it affects his jumps? I think he has beautiful jumps in general, and I do think it has a lot to do with his thin frame. Bad comparison, but doesn't he have a similar body to a pre-pubescent kid, basically slim all around, which according to some people is much easier to get a quick rotation going? For that reason, I've always thought that Hanyu had an advantage in his jumps. I find his jumps look "easy" because they are so smooth as opposed to say, Javier's which I find has more power. In that respect, I have a feeling Hanyu might be one of the best jumpers of all time. This is not any sort of fan fawning, but just a prediction based on what he has, which includes a good coach, talent, motivation, strong legs, and a thin frame.

Your thoughts?

I think most of us same have the same thoughts :) He is getting now stronger and stronger physically. Ho knows what future holds, but he has for sure potential to do great things :)
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Transitions are a bullet point for jumps, so obviously skaters ARE lauded for transitions - obviously a skater wouldn't be lauded for the fall/screwed up part of the jump... they'd be lauded for the entry.

The point I'm making is, if you have skaters all with strong quads (Hanyu/Chan/Plushenko), then one variable to look at as to who has the best quad toe is their ability to do transitions before it.

Except that surely even you would agree that it's a black mark against the scoring of our sport that Chan can wipe the ice with his backside on the quad and still only get -2 or -1 GOE because of the transitions.
 

jace93

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Except that surely even you would agree that it's a black mark against the scoring of our sport that Chan can wipe the ice with his backside on the quad and still only get -2 or -1 GOE because of the transitions.

That's actually judges that do not applie the rules, because a fall has a mandatory -3 goe deduction... going by the rulebook transitions, delay in rotation, difficult entries, etc.., shouldn't alter the goe of a jump (or a spin or a step sequence for the matter) if you fall.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Except that surely even you would agree that it's a black mark against the scoring of our sport that Chan can wipe the ice with his backside on the quad and still only get -2 or -1 GOE because of the transitions.

Yes, and when Carolina Kostner gets only -2 GOE for a fall while having no transitions that's way better :rolleye:
Judges have started being stupid on a lot of occasions, certainly not only with Chan and/or transitions. Dunno why you seem a little opposed to transitions as a 'quality marker', but since they are making the execution of a jump harder, it's perfectly fine to use them to judge the quality of a jump (obviously a well executed one, you're argument makes it sound as if transition+fall was worse than 'just' a fall on a jump).
 

abc123

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
This may not seem so to everyone, but I find it a little odd that both Gracie and the Asadas are skating to Let It Go. Especially considering who runs the show, wouldn't it have been the thing to do for Gracie to skate one of her other programs? Even if just to give the audience some variety?:confused:
 

Krunchii

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
This may not seem so to everyone, but I find it a little odd that both Gracie and the Asadas are skating to Let It Go. Especially considering who runs the show, wouldn't it have been the thing to do for Gracie to skate one of her other programs? Even if just to give the audience some variety?:confused:

I'm not sure how this is relevant to this thread but I first saw the Asadas skate to Let It Go I thought Gracie would do something different, I think it's redundant and Gracie should have chosen something else. Maybe they let her skate it because it's in English and it's so popular in Japan right now. It's currently the 3rd highest grossing movie in Japan and the Japanese version of Let It Go topped the Recochoku digital charts for weeks, the soundtrack is one of the highest selling albums of the year there too.

Li Chengjiang... pure jumping technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGRFHRF--cs
Fantastic, he was one of my favourites as a kid. Too bad he couldn't medal at Worlds, his quad salchow is also very good. He's currently coaching in China and I believe he's one of Zijun Li's coaches.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Many of Chinese male skaters have a solid jump techniques. I have seen a few of them (but not Chengjiang Li unfortunately). Haijun Gao is one of the best coach in China in my opinion. Not so sure why he has no skaters in the current team.

Their problems are more the artistic sides I suppose. Some Chinese skaters seem uncomfortable interpreting the music. They need to fix their blank expression. Han Yan and Nan Song are getting better in the resent competition though.

I actually think the Chinese skaters would have dominated the 80's and 90's where the "style" was to be more rigid and not as emotionally expressive, and it was more about being technically impressive.
 

BusyMom

Medalist
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I actually think the Chinese skaters would have dominated the 80's and 90's where the "style" was to be more rigid and not as emotionally expressive, and it was more about being technically impressive.

So..they practically missed that train. :bang: But I still have high hope for them. At least Men skating is rely on the quad jumps now more than ever. They need to up their SS to fight for the podium at least.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Except that surely even you would agree that it's a black mark against the scoring of our sport that Chan can wipe the ice with his backside on the quad and still only get -2 or -1 GOE because of the transitions.

Of course I agree that it's wrong. Although that's improper judging and not a reflection on the skater's ability. A skater falling on a jump doesn't change the fact that they still attempted a harder entry/air position. A fall should be -3, but a touch down on a jump with no transition should be considered inferior to a touch down on a jump with difficult transitions. Just like a 3A with superior height and distance and entry can still be -1 GOE if the skater has a minor error on the landing.

I'm not somebody who likes jumps to get positive GOE though if they're under-rotated or there's a minor error. 0 is the max, and that would be if the skater has a two-foot/turnout/slight hand down or something... anything worse should get -2/-3 GOE no matter how good the rest of the jump is. The only exception where a skater makes an error but shouldn't be automatically given -GOE is is an edge call... if a jump has everything else perfect like excellent height/distance/transitions etc. and happened to be an edge call, the skater should be able to get a max of 0/+1, assuming they would have got a +2/+3 with the correct edge.

There are plenty of elements where popular skaters are given like Kostner's fall at 2013 Worlds getting -2's... Asada getting +GOE for two footed 3A... Volosozhar obviously touching her hand down on their throw 3L in Sochi and getting three +1/four+2 GOE and getting five +3's for a two-foot on the throw 3S. Chan's not the only one.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
So..they practically missed that train. :bang: But I still have high hope for them. At least Men skating is rely on the quad jumps now more than ever. They need to up their SS to fight for the podium at least.

Yes, men are given much more credit now for technical ability. Boyang Jin could potentially score well with his quad abilities. A skater like Kovtun would probably not be 4th in the World were he not credited for his quad attempts. Fernandez, being not from a popular skating country, would have also had a tougher time getting the credit he deserves IMO.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I don't think the 1998-2002 Chinese skaters would necessarily do better under COP, since most of them were really, really bad spinners. I do think one of them had a very impressive Y-spin though (can't remember who... darn it, brain!). And for the most part, they weren't very great artists (though Goebel was even worse at times, and he did better than them...)

Fernandez might struggle under 6.0 due to being from Spain, but on the other hand, he is a much, much better performer than any of the Chinese skaters or Kovtun, and will likely get credit on the second mark.

I don't particularly feel like skaters should be lauded for "trying" a difficult entry unless they actually land the jump. Maybe somewhat lauded for trying an altogether more difficult jump (quad loop, flip, lutz, ect.), but even then I wouldn't be very impressed if they tried it all season and kept falling.

Anyway, entry is probably on the lowest rung for me in terms of considering jumps. That's what the "transitions" mark is for. I still think Viktor Petrenko, Ilia Kulik, and Brian Boitano had some of the best 3As out there, even if their entries were fairly basic by current standards. On the other hand, Fadeev flew into all his jumps with zero preparation, but I wouldn't say he had the best jumps thanks to aspects of the jump itself, plus his lower consistency (not his fault, considering the injuries, but still).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Fernandez might struggle under 6.0 due to being from Spain, but on the other hand, he is a much, much better performer than any of the Chinese skaters or Kovtun, and will likely get credit on the second mark.

I don't particularly feel like skaters should be lauded for "trying" a difficult entry unless they actually land the jump. Maybe somewhat lauded for trying an altogether more difficult jump (quad loop, flip, lutz, ect.), but even then I wouldn't be very impressed if they tried it all season and kept falling.

Anyway, entry is probably on the lowest rung for me in terms of considering jumps. That's what the "transitions" mark is for. I still think Viktor Petrenko, Ilia Kulik, and Brian Boitano had some of the best 3As out there, even if their entries were fairly basic by current standards. On the other hand, Fadeev flew into all his jumps with zero preparation, but I wouldn't say he had the best jumps thanks to aspects of the jump itself, plus his lower consistency (not his fault, considering the injuries, but still).

No, a jump should not be lauded if it's a failure. But it doesn't change the fact that the skater is at least attempting to transition into the jump, instead of just powering into it. You don't laud a failed attempt, but you could laud an effort a skater makes to up the ante on the entry (and usually adding transitions to precede a jump isn't the critical factor in the jump being a success or not).
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I will laud skaters for landing a jump with a difficult transition. :yes: All else being equal, of course (because no one's going to convince me that Fadeev and Goebel had the best 3As of their generation).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I will laud skaters for landing a jump with a difficult transition. :yes: All else being equal, of course (because no one's going to convince me that Fadeev and Goebel had the best 3As of their generation).

Good, then we both agree. :) That goes back to the original discussion that for a quad toe to be considered the best, a difficult entry is a point of consideration (albeit secondary to things like height and ice coverage and flow on the landing). It's one of the reasons I would hold Hanyu and Chan's quad toes over Yagudin or Plushenko or Stojko. If you can execute a quad with steps preceding it, that means your quad is pretty awesome to begin with. If you need to rely on powering into a quad toe without any preceding steps to maintain the speed, then perhaps it isn't the best out there.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Well, at the end of the day, nobody is "wrong" about whose quad toe they prefer. Hanyu, Plushenko, Chan, Goebel... all perfectly respectable choices. I'm a bit :confused: about the votes for Sandhu and Stojko, but whatever floats your boat. ;)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well, at the end of the day, nobody is "wrong" about whose quad toe they prefer. Hanyu, Plushenko, Chan, Goebel... all perfectly respectable choices. I'm a bit :confused: about the votes for Sandhu and Stojko, but whatever floats your boat. ;)

I think Sandhu's is about air position. He has one of the straightest quads. When he hits it, it's actually quite astounding. See 48:23 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhP3o9bh8uc

I don't get why Stojko's is one of the best in terms of quality but like I said, he certainly helped pioneer the popularity of the quad and pushed the envelope. Like Plushenko, he had one of the most consistent quads, so obviously when determining who has the "best" quad, the ability to land it reliably is a huge factor.
 
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