Malaysia Airlines Flight Crashes in Ukraine.

Meoima · Jul 29, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
May I just interject and ask if anyone feels distrust toward the Ukranian President Poroshenko. I feel like this guy will say anything. Now I'm not putting Putin or Obama on a pedestal and in fact I am not a fan of either and I still find this Poroshenko guy to be very very untrustworthy even compared to likes of those two he seems the most politically driven to accomplish his goals first and foremost...at any cost. Just my take as of late via interviews and translated pressers.

Agree!

There is something fishy about that guy (well, not that we could find a clean politicians ever but...)

Snow63 · Jul 29, 2014

TMC said:
I have a question/wondering. If it was a false flag/USA/Ukraine/Illuminati. What would be the Russian army's motivation for lying? Surely the less lies the more tenable their position (ie. Nothing to do with us at all)?

About a week ago they claimed, in a press conference or similar public platform, that the

su-25 can reach altitudes of 10km.

Now the manufacturer claims and has always claimed that the

su-25 can reach altitudes of 7km unarmed and 5km armed.

Then it turned out on Monday that an ip-address from Kremlin tried to change the Wikipedia entry for the plane to conform with the statements made in that briefing.

I can buy that that ip-address could have been hacked to make the Russian army look bad, but by lying in a press conference they had surely done the damage all by themselves?

I think the point was that it can reach 10 km for a small amount of time. I'm not sure, but that's what I remember them saying.
But it doesn't matter because the plane was shot down by Buk. And still according to Russian radar's data there was another plane (probably Su-25) within reach of Boeing. It doesn't mean anything except that it was there. Probably for some reason.
And it was also confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller who worked in Kiev at that day. He actually claimed that according to his radar there were 2 different jets on the 'tail' of Boeing. And it also doesn't help that all ukrainian radar records were immediately confiscated by ukrainian force.
You can read about it here: http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down- Not sure if US media ever reported about that.
Or in any other article that was posted before.

Edit: and I forgot to say that all this 'Kremlin ip-adress' stuff is extremely weird. I don't think they are too stupid to do that right from Kremlin :laugh:

And Wikipedia? Seriously?

samkrut@mail.ru · Jul 29, 2014

gmyers said:
Just one oligarchs fortunes destroyed is all that it would take for them to try to kill him now.

Where are you from? It is a polite way to ask the question, "how old are you?" Less than a year as the President in 2000 Putin made flee Berezovskij - the most powerful oligarkh from Eltsin's era. Only 3 years as the president back in 2003 Putin destroyed the business of the wealthiest Russian oligarkh Khodorkovski, having jailed him for 10 years. Who can challenge him now? This nonsense is even not entertaining.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jul 29, 2014

TMC said:
I have a question/wondering. If it was a false flag/USA/Ukraine/Illuminati. What would be the Russian army's motivation for lying? Surely the less lies the more tenable their position (ie. Nothing to do with us at all)?

About a week ago they claimed, in a press conference or similar public platform, that the

su-25 can reach altitudes of 10km.

Now the manufacturer claims and has always claimed that the

su-25 can reach altitudes of 7km unarmed and 5km armed.

Then it turned out on Monday that an ip-address from Kremlin tried to change the Wikipedia entry for the plane to conform with the statements made in that briefing.

I can buy that that ip-address could have been hacked to make the Russian army look bad, but by lying in a press conference they had surely done the damage all by themselves?

Russian-made planes can have modifications. SU-25 has Su-25T modification with higher attainable altitude which is truely 10 km - all the sources say that. Then it is not right to say "lie" because that su-25T can reach 10 km altitude is the truth. But it cannot do it FULLY armed. The right questions then are: was it su-25T? was it fully armed or partially armed and what is the maximum altitude for the partially armed su-25T? What should be the maximum possible altitude of the target to be shot by a fully or partially armed su-25? Answering those questions one could get to the conclusion that it is possible that MH-17 at 33000 feet was hit by Su-25. But then there is a theory that at some point in time Boeing flew lower than that - in such a case the altitude discussion is meaningless.

TMC · Jul 29, 2014

Snow63 said:
I think the point was that it can reach 10 km for a small amount of time. I'm not sure, but that's what I remember them saying.
But it doesn't matter because the plane was shot down by Buk. And still according to Russian radar's data there was another plane (probably Su-25) within reach of Boeing. It doesn't mean anything except that it was there. Probably for some reason.
And it was also confirmed by Spanish air traffic controller who worked in Kiev at that day. He actually claimed that according to his radar there were 2 different jets on the 'tail' of Boeing. And it also doesn't help that all ukrainian radar records were immediately confiscated by ukrainian force.
You can read about it here: http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down- Not sure if US media ever reported about that.
Or in any other article that was posted before.

Edit: and I forgot to say that all this 'Kremlin ip-adress' stuff is extremely weird. I don't think they are too stupid to do that right from Kremlin And Wikipedia? Seriously?

That Spanish ac guy: that whole story was debunked a while ago.
And yes there are so called twitter bots that track wikipedia changes and where they come from. Just the other day someone wrote some pretty hilarious stuff from a computer in the US congress. And just after MH17 the entries in related wikis were changed back & forth a bit from both Ukraine & Russia.

Snow63 · Jul 29, 2014

TMC said:
That Spanish ac guy: that whole story was debunked a while ago.
And yes there are so called twitter bots that track wikipedia changes and where they come from. Just the other day someone wrote some pretty hilarious stuff from a computer in the US congress. And just after MH17 the entries in related wikis were changed back & forth a bit from both Ukraine & Russia.

Discussing wikipedia articles related to the topic is just meaningless. I can change any article right now myself, so it's not even funny.
As for the spanish guy, I don't know if the story's debunked or not, but all ukrainian radar records and any records from air traffic control service room actually WERE immediately arrested and confiscated (not by ICAO members I should mention). Remember another lost Malaysian plane? We had all records available after the catastrophe. What we have now? Silence. And this fact is also raising doubts about russian and separatists involvement in this tragedy.

[email protected] said:
But then there is a theory that at some point in time Boeing flew lower than that - in such a case the altitude discussion is meaningless.

Exactly.

Alba · Jul 29, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
May I just interject and ask if anyone feels distrust toward the Ukranian President Poroshenko. I feel like this guy will say anything. Now I'm not putting Putin or Obama on a pedestal and in fact I am not a fan of either and I still find this Poroshenko guy to be very very untrustworthy even compared to likes of those two he seems the most politically driven to accomplish his goals first and foremost...at any cost. Just my take as of late via interviews and translated pressers.

I agree with Paul Craig Roberts on Poroshenko: One Ukrainian oligarch has been replaced by another. Poroshenko’s palace is as sumptuous as Yanukovich’s palace. Poroshenko even served as a minister in Yanukovich’s government, and he has been part of Ukrainian political corruption for years. The only difference is that Poroshenko might choose to ally with Washington and become richer by participating in the West’s looting of Ukraine.

TMC · Jul 29, 2014

Snow63 said:
Discussing wikipedia articles related to the topic is just meaningless. I can change any article right now myself, so it's not even funny.
As for the spanish guy, I don't know if the story's debunked or not, but all ukrainian radar records and any records from air traffic control service room actually WERE immediately arrested and confiscated (not by ICAO members I should mention). Remember another lost Malaysian plane? We had all records available after the catastrophe. What we have now? Silence. And this fact is also raising doubts about russian and separatists involvement in this tragedy.

My aim was not to discuss wikipedia articles. Just to point out that changes were made to them from certain ip-addresses. And yes of course you could change anything there at any time. Thing is, nobody would be interested in any changes you personally made (except maybe NSA and then only if the site was important to them and/or you used some key words). People are, however, interested in changes when they come from computers from some governments office. Again, like I said, those can also be hacked.

As for the Spanish guy supposedly working in atc in Ukraine: even when one finds evidence online such as his tweets, it's worth doing a simple search about that same evidence every few days after first reading. Things may change/be debunked. The 2nd series of The Newsroom depicts a situation where even reputable news agencies can be fooled by 'facts' that in the end turn out to be either fabricated or simply a misunderstanding. Worth a watch.

Snow63 · Jul 29, 2014

TMC said:
As for the Spanish guy supposedly working in atc in Ukraine: even when one finds evidence online such as his tweets, it's worth doing a simple search about that same evidence every few days after first reading. Things may change/be debunked. The 2nd series of The Newsroom depicts a situation where even reputable news agencies can be fooled by 'facts' that in the end turn out to be either fabricated or simply a misunderstanding. Worth a watch.

I agree, I didn't follow this story tbh. And it's not on russian TV, so you're obviously right.
But my point stands still. If they have nothing to hide, then why arrest all their records aka evidence of their innocence?

Sam-Skwantch and Alba
It's nice to know that some people actually have doubts about Ukrainian chaos and it's president. I'm not saying it's true or not, but at least some people can watch at this situation from different points of view. I'm sure your local media do everything to show him as a saint or at least as wise european president, and show Ukraine as the only victim of the conflict.

gmyers · Jul 29, 2014

[email protected] said:
Where are you from? It is a polite way to ask the question, "how old are you?" Less than a year as the President in 2000 Putin made flee Berezovskij - the most powerful oligarkh from Eltsin's era. Only 3 years as the president back in 2003 Putin destroyed the business of the wealthiest Russian oligarkh Khodorkovski, having jailed him for 10 years. Who can challenge him now? This nonsense is even not entertaining.

In the US and but lots from all over the world like North America and Western Europe are saying the sanctions will produce a "palace coup" because so many oligarchs wealth is being destoryed and their companies are being destroyed. Yes other oligarchs have been jailed exiled etc but that was huge benefit to other oligarchs and now they all suffer! So that's the difference and the opinion of many in the US and other countries.

samkrut@mail.ru · Jul 29, 2014

gmyers said:
In the US and but lots from all over the world like North America and Western Europe are saying the sanctions will produce a "palace coup" because so many oligarchs wealth is being destoryed and their companies are being destroyed. Yes other oligarchs have been jailed exiled etc but that was huge benefit to other oligarchs and now they all suffer! So that's the difference and the opinion of many in the US and other countries.

Look, I will try to be very polite, although the stuff that you write provokes either harsh or sarcastic responses. I will not even preach. Just try to imagine that not everything that "lots from all over the world like North America and Western Europe are saying" is necessarily true. That the Western media is not necessarily free.

You might have watched Game of thrones. When "Littlefinger" tells Cersei: "Who has information, has the power" she replies: "Who has the power, has the power". And the latter is true in the case of Putin: he made it the way that as long as he is in power he has all the power and no one will even try to challenge him especially now. There is no opposition, there is no shadow government, there is no group of oligarchs who are planning anything. This is not Ukraine where one oligarch has replaced another this time with a big cover-up by the U.S. while yet another couple of those (Kolomojskij, Akhmetov) are waiting. Yes, Russian oligarchs will lose money - Putin himself will lose money, I am sure. But to my mind, this is a big favor to Russia. I hope that we will not be cut from the world completely: the West still needs our resources and BRICS lead by China are not willing to join. Then we will have the unique opportunity to stop once and for all looting our country selling oil and gas and placing a significant part of proceedes into Western banks or buying luxury homes in London or villas in Miami or the biggest yachts in the world or Chelsea club, etc., etc. Over the last 10 years Russia obtained more than 5 trillion (5000 billion) dollars for oil and gas exports. This would be enough for 100 most expensive in history Olympics. This would be enough to build a powerful modern economy - if a big part of it have not been looted.

I think Putin understands that he has no future in the West. Gorbi would have. But even he preferred to stay at home. And as Putin realizes that he will change the rules of the game for everyone, oligarchs included. For the better, I am sure.

But no one knows. It is 100 year anniversary of WW1 now. May be the U.S. has decided the time has come for the ultimate victory and what we are seeing now is part of the big plan? BTW - it started very similarly. A Serb's rebel shot an austrian duke. Austria issued an ultimatum to Serbia. Russia persuaded Serbia - our long time friend - to give up as much as possible. But one point was declined - admit Austrian army in Serbia to facilitate investigation. And the war started....

Alba · Jul 29, 2014

Snow63 said:
Sam-Skwantch and Alba
It's nice to know that some people actually have doubts about Ukrainian chaos and it's president.

I come from the Balkans, and I know very well how these things works. I know what it is to live in a (ex) communist country, and I know how these people became so shamefully rich while others, like the middle class disappeared for example, not even talking about the poor.
Certainly it was not the heritage of their fathers.

I also know how the so-called "revolutions" are made.

I'm sure your local media do everything to show him as a saint or at least as wise european president, and show Ukraine as the only victim of the conflict.

Unfortunately yes. Still, there are some who wants to dig more although they are not so popular.

gmyers · Jul 29, 2014

[email protected] said:
Look, I will try to be very polite, although the stuff that you write provokes either harsh or sarcastic responses. I will not even preach. Just try to imagine that not everything that "lots from all over the world like North America and Western Europe are saying" is necessarily true. That the Western media is not necessarily free.

You might have watched Game of thrones. When "Littlefinger" tells Cersei: "Who has information, has the power" she replies: "Who has the power, has the power". And the latter is true in the case of Putin: he made it the way that as long as he is in power he has all the power and no one will even try to challenge him especially now. There is no opposition, there is no shadow government, there is no group of oligarchs who are planning anything. This is not Ukraine where one oligarch has replaced another this time with a big cover-up by the U.S. while yet another couple of those (Kolomojskij, Akhmetov) are waiting. Yes, Russian oligarchs will lose money - Putin himself will lose money, I am sure. But to my mind, this is a big favor to Russia. I hope that we will not be cut from the world completely: the West still needs our resources and BRICS lead by China are not willing to join. Then we will have the unique opportunity to stop once and for all looting our country selling oil and gas and placing a significant part of proceedes into Western banks or buying luxury homes in London or villas in Miami or the biggest yachts in the world or Chelsea club, etc., etc. Over the last 10 years Russia obtained more than 5 trillion (5000 billion) dollars for oil and gas exports. This would be enough for 100 most expensive in history Olympics. This would be enough to build a powerful modern economy - if a big part of it have not been looted.

I think Putin understands that he has no future in the West. Gorbi would have. But even he preferred to stay at home. And as Putin realizes that he will change the rules of the game for everyone, oligarchs included. For the better, I am sure.

But no one knows. It is 100 year anniversary of WW1 now. May be the U.S. has decided the time has come for the ultimate victory and what we are seeing now is part of the big plan? BTW - it started very similarly. A Serb's rebel shot an austrian duke. Austria issued an ultimatum to Serbia. Russia persuaded Serbia - our long time friend - to give up as much as possible. But one point was declined - admit Austrian army in Serbia to facilitate investigation. And the war started....

If the western powers beleieve something to be true that's all that matters! It doesn't have to be true like with WMD in Iraq but they all beleieved it to be true and invaded Iraq and the foundation was all false!

Snow63 · Jul 31, 2014

Suspicious silence :slink:

TMC · Jul 31, 2014

Snow63 said:
And it's not on russian TV, so you're obviously right.

Hang on. Really? I don't want to assume so I'll ask: do you believe everything they tell you on Russian tv? I don't mean to offend, this is just a sincere query.

I mean, I would expect people who grew up in CCCP to be at the least very wary of anything said in any media owned/controlled by the government...and I'm not bashing CCCP or Russia in any way here, just looking at it from a historical perspective.

Heck, I live in a country that is known for its transparency and lack of corruption, and I still don't trust half of what I hear on tv whether the channel is owned by the government or a private enterprise.

Oh and re the Ukrainian president: our media is definitely not painting him out to be a saint. Basically they are saying here's this chocolate guy, let's hope he can do something to help in these troubled times. For sure the newspapers are not full of 5-page biographies dedicated to his achievements :laugh:

Snow63 said:
Suspicious silence

I was on holiday

Alba · Aug 18, 2014

It seems the truth is coming out, slowly but it will eventually.
http://www.lastampa.it/2014/08/12/b...alisti-usa-YqIvBk8AmzrC4WavpYOgeN/pagina.html

Unfortunately I can't find this news on the major newspapers in English. The only website which comes up with it in English is this one:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/eviden...-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814

TMC · Aug 19, 2014

The Dutch team's prelim report is expected in about 2 weeks. "It will not attribute blame or liability." I find that refreshing.

I doubt that there will ever come out any universally accepted "truth", just different truths that are true to different people. Like 9/11. Any "proof" can always be explained away if it doesn't fit that person's paradigm.

Lockerbie took 13 years from event to conviction. And an additional 2 years for admission & reparations. And it's still considered controversial.

Malaysia Airlines Flight Crashes in Ukraine.

Meoima

Match Penalty

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

[email protected]

Medalist

[email protected]

Medalist

TMC

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

Alba

TMC

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

gmyers

[email protected]

Medalist

Alba

gmyers

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

TMC

Alba

TMC

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