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- Feb 13, 2014
God lord!
and both sides are still blaming the other!
Malaysia Airlines Flight Crashes in Ukraine.
- Thread starter BusyMom
- Start date
and both sides are still blaming the other!
Latest number of passengers and their nationalities: http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html
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- Oct 25, 2012
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God lord!
You know what is sickening. I have been reading through comments on Facebook, and some people are jumping on a particular conspiracy theory (I'm not going to repeat it here).
Like, have some sympathy! The poor victims are not even in the ground yet!
Absolutely beautiful. It is amazing what can be done with 3 little words.
(I also listened to some of Olympia's link, and it is beautiful too. But, it's just a bit too long to listen to in its entirity at the moment...)
Let's hope the Ukrainians start singing it too, and maybe somebody will listen...
CaroLiza_fan
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
History not only repeats itself, but it's a very useful guide to possible solutions...
I'm taking most of this from wikipedia simply for expediency. I'm sure this is a partial list...
1930 – Salt Satyagraha in India in an attempt to overthrow British colonial rule (leading to the eventual withdrawl of British rule in 1945-1947)
1980–1989 – The [Polish] Solidarity movement in April marshals popular resistance to communist rule, though progress is halted by the imposition of martial law.
1987–1989 – The Singing Revolution – a cycle of singing mass demonstrations, followed by a living chain across the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), known as the Baltic Way.
1989 – The Peaceful Revolution in the German Democratic Republic leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall
1989 – The Velvet Revolution – the bloodless revolution in Czechoslovakia leading to the downfall of the communist government there.
1989 – The bloodless revolution in Bulgaria that resulted in the downfall of the communist government.
1974 – The Carnation Revolution in Portugal.
1979 – The Iranian Revolution in Iran (not the best of examples, perhaps, but it was a nonviolent revolution)
1986 – The People Power (Yellow) Revolution in the Philippines, where the term people power was coined.
1990-1993 - Apartheid dismantled in South Africa
1991 - The successful resistance to 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt which had the effect of a revolution was mostly non-violent.
Add to the above several worldwide social movements:
Civil Rights in the US
Second Wave feminism
LGBT
Yes, violent military revolutions will bring about change, but the change is never as long lasting as nonviolent social change. Never.
Just something to think about, no?
NB: Gandhi's analysis and use of Satyagraha is worth reading about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
I'm taking most of this from wikipedia simply for expediency. I'm sure this is a partial list...
1930 – Salt Satyagraha in India in an attempt to overthrow British colonial rule (leading to the eventual withdrawl of British rule in 1945-1947)
1980–1989 – The [Polish] Solidarity movement in April marshals popular resistance to communist rule, though progress is halted by the imposition of martial law.
1987–1989 – The Singing Revolution – a cycle of singing mass demonstrations, followed by a living chain across the Baltic states (Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia), known as the Baltic Way.
1989 – The Peaceful Revolution in the German Democratic Republic leading to the fall of the Berlin Wall
1989 – The Velvet Revolution – the bloodless revolution in Czechoslovakia leading to the downfall of the communist government there.
1989 – The bloodless revolution in Bulgaria that resulted in the downfall of the communist government.
1974 – The Carnation Revolution in Portugal.
1979 – The Iranian Revolution in Iran (not the best of examples, perhaps, but it was a nonviolent revolution)
1986 – The People Power (Yellow) Revolution in the Philippines, where the term people power was coined.
1990-1993 - Apartheid dismantled in South Africa
1991 - The successful resistance to 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt which had the effect of a revolution was mostly non-violent.
Add to the above several worldwide social movements:
Civil Rights in the US
Second Wave feminism
LGBT
Yes, violent military revolutions will bring about change, but the change is never as long lasting as nonviolent social change. Never.
Just something to think about, no?
NB: Gandhi's analysis and use of Satyagraha is worth reading about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha
Thanks, Ankles.
I'd also like to point out that in the main part of the Civil Rights movement in this country, it took about fifteen years to desegregate public transportation and facilities and get the Voting Rights Act passed, all done peacefully. Several movements of "armed struggle" started at that time were still going on thirty years later, and the people involved had nothing except struggle to show for it.
One of my heroes, a young man from the Alabama backwoods named John Lewis, was about twenty when he began taking part in sit-ins at segregated lunch counters in Nashville, Tennessee. He would never have been allowed to vote in his home state. He became a civil rights activist using the principles of Gandhi and was arrested many times through the next years as he became a Freedom Rider (to desegregate interstate buses and bus terminals) and marched from Selma, Alabama, to Montgomery, the capital. He was one of the featured speakers in the March on Washington in 1963 at the age of 23. On the first attempt to stage the Selma march, a local police chief broke up the march with tear gas and billy clubs. Lewis was beaten by a police officer and his skull was fractured. He was still only about 25 years old. Despite that, everything he worked for came to pass, including assuring voting rights. Some years later, Lewis was elected to the U.S. Congress, where he still serves today.
I'd also like to point out that in the main part of the Civil Rights movement in this country, it took about fifteen years to desegregate public transportation and facilities and get the Voting Rights Act passed, all done peacefully. Several movements of "armed struggle" started at that time were still going on thirty years later, and the people involved had nothing except struggle to show for it.
One of my heroes, a young man from the Alabama backwoods named John Lewis, was about twenty when he began taking part in sit-ins at segregated lunch counters in Nashville, Tennessee. He would never have been allowed to vote in his home state. He became a civil rights activist using the principles of Gandhi and was arrested many times through the next years as he became a Freedom Rider (to desegregate interstate buses and bus terminals) and marched from Selma, Alabama, to Montgomery, the capital. He was one of the featured speakers in the March on Washington in 1963 at the age of 23. On the first attempt to stage the Selma march, a local police chief broke up the march with tear gas and billy clubs. Lewis was beaten by a police officer and his skull was fractured. He was still only about 25 years old. Despite that, everything he worked for came to pass, including assuring voting rights. Some years later, Lewis was elected to the U.S. Congress, where he still serves today.
Oh, thank you. Sorry. I'm glad no one wants military action.
Plushyfan, its like skatedreamer said I was posting some things I had read on other sites/news media.
While I don't want military action, it's something that isn't going away until the end of time.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2011
WeakAnkles you didn't mentioned the Romanian revolution and the peaceful transition in Hungary 1989.
Hey, I'm happy to add to that list, pf, because nonviolent revolution resulting in more freedoms is a cool list, y'know? Way cooler than the unfortunate alternative...
I was in college when we held a "sleep-in" at the Student Center and in the Dean's Office to convince the Board of Governors to divest its holdings in South African companies. Took quite a few weeks of people sleeping every night in both places, but divest they did. A good story with a happy ending...
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Hey, I'm happy to add to that list, pf, because nonviolent revolution resulting in more freedoms is a cool list, y'know? Way cooler than the unfortunate alternative...
I was in college when we held a "sleep-in" at the Student Center and in the Dean's Office to convince the Board of Governors to divest its holdings in South African companies. Took quite a few weeks of people sleeping every night in both places, but divest they did. A good story with a happy ending...
I did mistake the Romanian revolution wasn't nonviolent. They were fighting and put an end to the dictatorship of Nicolae Ceausescu.
Hey, I'm happy to add to that list, pf, because nonviolent revolution resulting in more freedoms is a cool list, y'know? Way cooler than the unfortunate alternative...
I was in college when we held a "sleep-in" at the Student Center and in the Dean's Office to convince the Board of Governors to divest its holdings in South African companies. Took quite a few weeks of people sleeping every night in both places, but divest they did. A good story with a happy ending...
South Africa was an extraordinary story. I honestly thought I'd never see the end of apartheid in my lifetime. At that time, a South African worked in our office. He had never voted before, and he would be able to cast an absentee ballot for the candidate of his choice. I still get gooseflesh thinking that I witnessed an older adult's first opportunity to exercise such a basic right. And you're right, Ankles: all of us around the world were able to contribute to that seismic change with actions such as persuading universities to get rid of stocks that they held in South African companies.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2014
That is a wonderful story!
This brings back so many memories----of times when the majority of people were decent and humanity was not a cuss word. I was only 10 or so in 1986 and I remember disctinctly going through the fruit section at the supermarket and making sure that no South African produce went into my parents' trolley...me and my best friends watched Cry Freedom at least ten times in a row on a crappy vhs and then we'd go around the schoolyard during recess, arm in arm, singing Biko....at ten years of age! And when we went to junior high (I guess the equivalent, anyway it's a compulsory school for ages 13-15 here), we had whole weeks of history classes dedicated first to the US Civil Rights struggle and then Apartheid. We'd make huge collages and posters and hang them on the classroom walls, and I believe we even sent letters to South African politicians. It seemed so crazy and surreal then - at 13 I remember thinking come on, this is 1989, we're civilized people, how is this still going on? I just couldn't fathom how much hate and resentment there was in the world, and why parents were teaching their innocent children to keep the tradition of hate alive. And I remember thinking that by the time I grew up, by the time I was ancient, like 30 or so, all of this weirdness would have been resolved because surely people would learn from history and surely they were rational beings who understood that we'd all be better off if we could just share this gorgeous blue ball equally and happily together. Well that sure ain't gonna happen anytime ever. We're only going backwards, to hell in a handbasket as fast as we can accelerate.
Please forgive the rant
I certainly understand why you're disheartened, TMC. But we can't give up now. In the two movements you mentioned, and in others, there is a model for us. Imagine what life was like for people in Louisiana or Alabama in the old days, when you could be the head of your teachers' union and still be ineligible to vote. (As F.D. Reese was in Selma, Alabama.) Or to be a resident of one of the Bantustans of South Africa. These were hopeless situations, with daily insults and frustrations. The American Jim Crow laws governed the most minuscule of details: separate drinking fountains, separate laundries....I know that similar thoroughness was evident in the national laws of South Africa. But then it turned out that the situation wasn't hopeless, because people worked together and moved forward inch by inch.
One rather obscure fact keeps me going when it comes to national and tribal hatred that causes violence, which is a bit different in kind from the repressive race laws we're talking about here. In the year 842, two grandsons of Charlemagne made an alliance against a third grandson over the disputed strip of land ruled by that third grandson. That land was basically Alsace-Lorraine. My college history professor pointed out (in broad strokes) that from that day on, most of the wars in Western Europe were fought over that same strip of land--all the way up through World War II. And for one reason or another, France and Germany were almost always on opposing sides. Yet from 1945 on, those two countries have been allies. It only took 1100 years, and during all those years, it seemed that such an outcome was impossible. And yet it has happened. So take heart, and keep on going!
One rather obscure fact keeps me going when it comes to national and tribal hatred that causes violence, which is a bit different in kind from the repressive race laws we're talking about here. In the year 842, two grandsons of Charlemagne made an alliance against a third grandson over the disputed strip of land ruled by that third grandson. That land was basically Alsace-Lorraine. My college history professor pointed out (in broad strokes) that from that day on, most of the wars in Western Europe were fought over that same strip of land--all the way up through World War II. And for one reason or another, France and Germany were almost always on opposing sides. Yet from 1945 on, those two countries have been allies. It only took 1100 years, and during all those years, it seemed that such an outcome was impossible. And yet it has happened. So take heart, and keep on going!
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I really enjoy your perspective on things Olympia. I'm not always wise enough to seperate my thoughts from my emotions but reading posts like yours and others have inspired me in many ways even in the face of tragedy.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2014
I second this. I am so grateful there are people who in the face of all adversity still manage to find hope somewhere.
All of this BS is because of one little thug named Putin. The Dutch can't even claim their dead yet because these pro Russian jackasses won't release the bodies. Why the Ukrainian military doesn't go in there and wipe these thugs out is beyond me.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2014
I am sure there are better places for posts full of hatred to Russia than GS.
272 bodies were packed into refrigerated cars by rebels. Dutch experts examined them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHKxP3aiTs0
It is clear that rebels do not need the bodies. The question now is where to send them, to Kiev or directly to Amsterdam. The very first thing the Kiev did was the removal of the communication between the crew and dispatchers. Why? Cannot one just suppose that if it were ukrainian army who shot the plane they will do everything to destroy the evidence? Or all the answers were already given by Obama and Kerry minutes after the disaster and no further investigation is needed? Don't you know btw the outcome of the Kiev led investigation of burning alive dozens of protesters in Odessa? The main "official" version is that they burned themselves although the whole world saw Molotov's cocktails thrown at the building.
What's going on in Ukraine is a big tragedy. The country's economy is in ruins: average salary is $300 per month. It is 3 times less than in Russia and 10 times less than in Western Europe which Ukraine wants so dearly to join. The country needs peace and a lot of foreign money. So far there is no peace and no money only fuelled-up hatred.
272 bodies were packed into refrigerated cars by rebels. Dutch experts examined them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHKxP3aiTs0
It is clear that rebels do not need the bodies. The question now is where to send them, to Kiev or directly to Amsterdam. The very first thing the Kiev did was the removal of the communication between the crew and dispatchers. Why? Cannot one just suppose that if it were ukrainian army who shot the plane they will do everything to destroy the evidence? Or all the answers were already given by Obama and Kerry minutes after the disaster and no further investigation is needed? Don't you know btw the outcome of the Kiev led investigation of burning alive dozens of protesters in Odessa? The main "official" version is that they burned themselves although the whole world saw Molotov's cocktails thrown at the building.
What's going on in Ukraine is a big tragedy. The country's economy is in ruins: average salary is $300 per month. It is 3 times less than in Russia and 10 times less than in Western Europe which Ukraine wants so dearly to join. The country needs peace and a lot of foreign money. So far there is no peace and no money only fuelled-up hatred.
This is the most heartfelt piece I read today: http://www.straitstimes.com/news/as...mh17-crash-20-families-gone-one-shot-20140721
