Malaysia Airlines Flight Crashes in Ukraine.

lilahozi said:

1) The separatists have shot down multiple Ukranian transport planes before and after M17
2) The Russian media itself has previously confirmed several times BEFORE the incident that the separatists have possession of a Bulk missile system

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1) The highest reported altitude of the shot transport so far was 18000 feet a little more than a half of the Boeing's. You do not need Buk for that. And you cannot shoot a high flying jet with a hand held launcher.
2) Could you provide a link - have not you confused the Russian media with Ukrainian? There is one recent interview by a former separatist leader which he gave Reuters by telephone - he claims that he never said what is attributed now to him. He says that he has the tape and his exact words were: "Я не говорю о том, что Россия поставляет или Россия не поставляет, это вопрос десятый сейчас. Россия могла поставить этот "Бук" под какие-то совершенно локальные задачи" which means: " I do not say that Russia supplies or does not supply - it is an irrelevant question now. Russia could have provide this BUK for some absolutely local tasks". Sounds different to me than "separatists confirmed that they shot the Being by BUK supplied by Russia".

dorispulaski said:

Plus the Bulk missile system is not an American missile system. I don't believe we had anything to do with shooting down the plane.

I could believe Americans lying about the evidence, however, to benefit their own aims. Our government certainly lied enough in the buildup to the Iraq War.

But in general, while there is a lot of wickedness in the world, there is a lot more stupidity and carelessness than gross wickedness.

The only reason anyone here has given for the Ukrainians to shoot down a commercial plane full of people not involved in any way in actions against either Ukraine, the separatists or Russia, is that they are grossly wicked people.

I find it more likely that shooting down a commercial airliner was someone's tragic mistake. And given that the separatists admit to shooting down military planes before and after M17, they are the likeliest culprits IMO.

However, it is better to wait for a complete analysis than to jump to conclusions.

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I agree 100%

From the very start my first thought has been "accident" - I never thought anyone involved in this had any reason to do this on purpose. Everything points to a mistake, and if it turns out that this in fact was the case, coming out and admitting it straight away would have been better than anything that will happen now.

I can just imagine it: a hastily trained separatist or a slightly drunk officer is eager to use the new BUK missile system, which the separatists
a) had seized from Ukraine (as reported by Russian media and the separatists themselves) AND which they were trained to use by their own separatist leaders who are ex-soldiers or the like and have this knowledge
b) OR which had been given to them by Russia AND which they were trained to use by Russia.

His friends have won praise for shooting down Ukrainian military planes. He wants to have a go. He hasn't been instructed to listen for air comms, which would tell him this is a civilian plane, or he doesn't understand them, or he's in a hurry, or - and this is sort of possible but I want to think very unlikely still - he is grossly wicked and doesn't care. He pushes the button/pulls the trigger.

A commander wakes up a bunch of his militiamen, tells them "we have just downed a Ukrainian military plane, get your guns and come with us. There's white stuff floating down the sky so it is possible that the pilot and some others have escaped via parachutes. We may have to fight. They drive to the area and proceed to search around. One man is searching in a pile of rubble and finds the body of a five-year-old girl, face down. He realises that this was not military, that they'd shot down a civilian aircraft. He feels awful. He doesn't know who shot it - his commander told him it was them - but now he hears it was Ukraine.

(This last paragraph is a translated section from a short interview with a mine worker from Torez, who is with the separatists and was guarding the train when interviewed.)

These foil-hat touting conspiracy theorists are taking this to some other stratosphere:

USA did it to start WW3?
Remotely possible, but very highly unlikely. Well it sure doesn't look like they'll be bombing Russia any time soon. Why would they want WW3? The economy is not too bad and the president is quite popular.

Russia did it in order to blame Ukraine and show the world how evil they (Ukrainians) are?
Remotely possible, but very highly unlikely. I'm sure that they understand that the risk of getting caught is enormous (same goes for USA above) and the reward is in no way guaranteed.

Ukraine did it to blame the separatists and Russia in an effort to involve the international community, get sympathy and eventual military involvement?
Remotely possible, but very highly unlikely. I'm sure that they understand that the risk of getting caught is enormous (same goes for Russia above) and the reward is in no way guaranteed.

USA had years to photoshop and generate gigabytes of false data in order to fool the UN into giving them a licence to kill in Iraq. Yet, they still got caught. In fact & OT, I was not surprised to read Colin Powell's interview about how uncomfortable he felt at that UN meeting where he, among other things, explained the satellite photos that purported to show areas where WMDs were stored. I was watching that and I thought to myself "that guy is squirming. Either he knows he's bearing false witness or he feels that he's been pressured to do this against his own will when he would actually want more proof". And hey presto, years later he admitted just that.

Oh and sorry but I must nitpick - it's Buk, not Bulk. But at least people have stopped writing "The Ukraine"!

The problem with your version is that to launch Buk is not just to press a button. It takes coordination of several parties including a separate radar station - otherwise it will not hit anything even by chance. So, my view is that it was an evil intention same as when someone shot the president's plane in Ruanda in 1994. Then the question is whose evil intention it was.

[email protected] said:

The problem with your version is that to launch Buk is not just to press a button. It takes coordination of several parties including a separate radar station - otherwise it will not hit anything even by chance. So, my view is that it was an evil intention same as when someone shot the president's plane in Ruanda in 1994. Then the question is whose evil intention it was.

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Ok, so is it inconceivable for all these separate parties to make a mistake together?

And are these people with this "evil intention" really that stupid that they don't understand that they will most likely get caught and they are essentially shooting themselves in the foot?

It was a terrible tragedy. Almost 300 people have died for nothing.
And the hysteria around the investigation is just killing me. US and EU are claiming that they have 'strong evidence' that separatist shot down the plane with Russia's help. But where are them? Where are those photos from US satellites? Why no one have seen them? Where's 'growing evidence' that Russia have anything to do with that?

So far we have only words, speculations and some Youtube video of some 'Buk' transported throught territory that controlled by UKRAINIAN force. The only real evidence we have were provided by (ta-dah!) Russia. Photos from satellites, data from their radars etc. But seems like no one wants to believe that, because 'Putin OBVIOUSLY did it'. No investigation, no evidence, no real facts, no praesumptio innocentiae. Only endless accusations.

I'm not trying to say that Ukraine shot down the plane, it could have been separatists as well. I'm not exectly their fan, since my friend lives in Donetsk and the things he tells me sometimes are cringeworthy. But that's just ridiculous how quickly the world decided who did this. Maybe we should just forget about investigations and proofs at all? We just ask US, Australia and EU next time something happens: 'who did it?'. We can save a lot of time and money with this stragedy.

The separatists downed military fighter planes-which are smaller, faster, more erratically moving targets than commercial planes. M17 was travelling in an essentially straight line, and easy to hit. So the separatists have demonstrated the ability to use their Buk system well. If a radar system is required, it is clear they have access to one.

And there was no target of interest, like a president, on M17, just Dutch vacationers and AIDS researchers. Even the wicked generally expect an advantage or benefit from an evil action that wastes an expensive resource, like a high tech missile. Shooting M17 down yields no clear benefit to anyone.

dorispulaski said:

The separatists downed military fighter planes-which are smaller, faster, more erratically moving targets than commercial planes. M17 was travelling in an essentially straight line, and easy to hit. So the separatists have demonstrated the ability to use their Buk system well. If a radar system is required, it is clear they have access to one.

And there was no target of interest, like a president, on M17, just Dutch vacationers and AIDS researchers. Even the wicked generally expect an advantage or benefit from an evil action that wastes an expensive resource, like a high tech missile. Shooting M17 down yields no clear benefit to anyone.

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This.

Why the need to always jump into fanciful theories and dismiss the most likely explanation outright? I'm not saying it was 100% sure a mistake, but it seems so much more likely than anything else anyone has come up with.

TMC, yes.

And the simplest explanation is most often the right one.

However, I await more facts.

dorispulaski said:

The separatists downed military fighter planes-which are smaller, faster, more erratically moving targets than commercial planes. M17 was travelling in an essentially straight line, and easy to hit. So the separatists have demonstrated the ability to use their Buk system well. If a radar system is required, it is clear they have access to one.

And there was no target of interest, like a president, on M17, just Dutch vacationers and AIDS researchers. Even the wicked generally expect an advantage or benefit from an evil action that wastes an expensive resource, like a high tech missile. Shooting M17 down yields no clear benefit to anyone.

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Su-25 is not faster than Boeing Nice theory.

Another theory:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

It looks like everyone wants to have their theory.

Another day another plane: https://ph.news.yahoo.com/algeria-lost-contact-air-algerie-aircraft-aps-state-092354165.html
Algeria lost contact with their national carrier 50 minutes after take-off.

I need to do some research on Feng Shui or Chinese superstitions before my next flight.

dorispulaski said:

The separatists downed military fighter planes-which are smaller, faster, more erratically moving targets than commercial planes. M17 was travelling in an essentially straight line, and easy to hit. So the separatists have demonstrated the ability to use their Buk system well. If a radar system is required, it is clear they have access to one.

And there was no target of interest, like a president, on M17, just Dutch vacationers and AIDS researchers. Even the wicked generally expect an advantage or benefit from an evil action that wastes an expensive resource, like a high tech missile. Shooting M17 down yields no clear benefit to anyone.

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I think, you are just ignoring what I say - may be I do not communicate clearly. OK, I will try another time:

Separatists never showed their ability to use BUK because they never used it before the alleged use on Boeing. All the planes they shot (or claimed to shoot) were hit with other means.
The key challenge to hit Boeing is its altitude: 33000 feet. All the hit planes flew at much lower altitude. An-26 which was shot for sure in the air (for Su-25 it is predominantly "allegedly") was not only much lower - its velocity is about 50% of Boeing's. Other confirmed hits were either helicopters or transport plane at descent and the weapon there was a hand held launcher (like Stinger).

Mena while, another plane from Algeria has gone missing: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28460625

Flight AH 5017 had 110 passengers and six crew on board, officials said.

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What year is this, so scary.

[email protected] said:

I think, you are just ignoring what I say - may be I do not communicate clearly. OK, I will try another time:

Separatists never showed their ability to use BUK because they never used it before the alleged use on Boeing. All the planes they shot (or claimed to shoot) were hit with other means.
The key challenge to hit Boeing is its altitude: 33000 feet. All the hit planes flew at much lower altitude. An-26 which was shot for sure in the air (for Su-25 it is predominantly "allegedly") was not only much lower - its velocity is about 50% of Boeing's. Other confirmed hits were either helicopters or transport plane at descent and the weapon there was a hand held launcher (like Stinger).

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I ask again since you had no reply to my questions for you:

"Ok, so is it inconceivable for all these separate parties to make a mistake together?

And are these people with this "evil intention" really that stupid that they don't understand that they will most likely get caught and they are essentially shooting themselves in the foot?"

TMC said:

I ask again since you had no reply to my questions for you:

"Ok, so is it inconceivable for all these separate parties to make a mistake together?

And are these people with this "evil intention" really that stupid that they don't understand that they will most likely get caught and they are essentially shooting themselves in the foot?"

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It is a possible scenario. Someone who is in charge decides: "let's hit someone". He calls the radar unit, receives the answer: "there is a plane in our sector 33000 feet, velocity 850 km/h, flies along the direct line towards the border with Russia, distance to the border 70 km". The boss orders the radar unit: "give the aiming data". The radar unit gives the aiming data. The boss order the launch unit: "shoot!" The problem with this scenario is that if at any stage of this sequence there was analysis: "Who can it be?" the answer would be: commercial plane. And the proof was given by the airline itself: it was a regular route - dozens of other aircraft followed it the same day or the days before. And if it were 70 km to the border at 33000 feet with 850 km/h direct line in 5 minutes the plane would cross the border - how could it possibly be a ukrainian military transport? So that this scenario is possible only when no analysis was done at all: measure - aim - shoot. Hard to believe in such mistake.

What were they thinking if it were an "evil intention" by Ukraine? Cover-up. 100 people were killed by snipers in the middle of Kiev. Who are those snipers? 100 people were burned alive in Odessa - it was shown to the world. Who was caught and punished? What is the outcome of chemical attacks in Syria - is there proof not "alleged proof"? They might think this time it will also work - the world already has decided that Putin did it. Whether there is evidence or not.

I do not have a slightest idea who did it. Moreover, I do not support Putin's internal policies and his management style. But I become a "hard core patriot" when I hear groundless accusations and comparisons with Hitler who killed 30 million soviet people (including millions of ukrainians) during the war.

[email protected] said:

It is a possible scenario. Someone who is in charge decides: "let's hit someone". He calls the radar unit, receives the answer: "there is a plane in our sector 33000 feet, velocity 850 km/h, flies along the direct line towards the border with Russia, distance to the border 70 km". The boss orders the radar unit: "give the aiming data". The radar unit gives the aiming data. The boss order the launch unit: "shoot!" The problem with this scenario is that if at any stage of this sequence there was analysis: "Who can it be?" the answer would be: commercial plane. And the proof was given by the airline itself: it was a regular route - dozens of other aircraft followed it the same day or the days before. And if it were 70 km to the border at 33000 feet with 850 km/h direct line in 5 minutes the plane would cross the border - how could it possibly be a ukrainian military transport? So that this scenario is possible only when no analysis was done at all: measure - aim - shoot. Hard to believe in such mistake.

What were they thinking if it were an "evil intention" by Ukraine? Cover-up. 100 people were killed by snipers in the middle of Kiev. Who are those snipers? 100 people were burned alive in Odessa - it was shown to the world. Who was caught and punished? What is the outcome of chemical attacks in Syria - is there proof not "alleged proof"? They might think this time it will also work - the world already has decided that Putin did it. Whether there is evidence or not.

I do not have a slightest idea who did it. Moreover, I do not support Putin's internal policies and his management style. But I become a "hard core patriot" when I hear groundless accusations and comparisons with Hitler who killed 30 million soviet people (including millions of ukrainians) during the war.

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I think that that mistake is more believable than any of the current conspiracy theories in vogue. We still don't know 100%.

I think "the world", if it has decided anything, has decided that the separatists did it by mistake and they accuse Putin because of Russia's support to these separatists. That's it.

I don't think I personally have given groundless accusations. I also wouldn't compare Putin to Hitler. I have merely considered many aspects and come to the conclusion that the most likely cause of this tragedy was a mistake on the part of the Ukrainian separatists. Yes, the evidence is so far circumstantial, but like Olympia said, the black boxes will tell us something, and hopefully international investigators will manage to gather enough of what is now on the ground to draw some conclusions.

The thing is - people in the "west" tend to go from this being an accidental mistake, with a large percentage also blaming Russia for weponizing the separatists.
The people in the "east" just as immediately started accusing Ukraine, and even the US, with just as little evidence. Although both opinions I'm sure have their proponents on both sides, at least this is what I've gathered from the media (from both sides). And both sides must have their fair share of cuckoo-conspiracy-theorists. So my point is that it's not fair to say that anyone has decided anything, if one's not willing to admit that both sides have thrown around allegations and changed Wikipedia entries based on exactly as little evidence. Opinions differ even in families: I don't know what the heck is going on and am trying to figure this out, my uncle is convinced that the whole thing was orchestrated by Putin, and my mum thinks Russia and therefore Putin can do no wrong and if I suggest to her that all people make mistakes I'm spouting western propaganda In the end, none of us know s***, least of all who to believe/trust.

If watertight evidence comes out (satellite photos, physics calculations, shrapnel, video, confessions) that it was indeed a ground-to-air missile that was in the area controlled by separatists at the time, it will not be easy for the Russian media to accept this evidence. In fact, they probably won't. I don't know if there ever can be enough evidence for them to turn around and say "hey, we were wrong. we said it was Ukraine but it wasn't." Maybe they'll say it was a group of Ukrainian soldiers who had posed as separatists and infiltrated them, working with them undercover and gaining their trust so that they could perfom this act of terror and afterwards sneak back to Kiev?

Even if the group who made the mistake decided they couldn't live with this on their conscience and came out together and gave a televised interview in, say, a Dutch talk show where they confessed everything and proved beyond doubt that they had done it (with lie detectors if necessary), I imagine they would be branded liars, drunks, mentally ill or whatever. Even if one of them had videoed the shot and the debris falling, that video would "obviously be faked". There is no way the narrative is going to change.

Last night, my husband and I were talking about what we would have done in the situation, if we'd been a commander of a higher echelon and this had been a mistake from the separatists. We would have to lie because our careers or reputations or even lives would be on the line.

I would find out who did it, accuse one of the soldiers - the one who gave the final command - of being mentally ill and having had a psychotic episode brought on by the stressful situation (Ukraine's fault), which caused him to give the order. Obviously I would tell this soldier that if he talks, he's dead. Then I would hand him over to an international war crimes trial and have him plead not guilty by reason of insanity.

And that's how it is only the mistake of one person, nothing to do with Russia (if you don't count the weaponizing, but everybody knows that Russia hasn't given the separatists any weapons ever). And some blame can even be shifted to Ukraine for causing a situation where the separatists have no alternative but to take up arms in a civil war (which Putin already has done).

This is what happens when everyone is armed to the teeth. At some point, a weapon goes off. Then everyone has to explain it in a way that damages the other side more. I think it was Chekhov who wrote about plotting a play and said something like, "If there is a gun on the wall in Act I, it has to be fired in Act II." All you need is a moment of trigger-happy self-expression without really examining the target, and you have a crisis. Or even a mistake made in good faith, because the people with the missiles don't know all the factors needed to recognize what the "target" really is.

The U.S. has certainly been responsible for its share of incidents. The Iran Air passenger Airbus that was shot down is one example, but the difference is that the U.S. did settle the issue financially. (Apparently a U.S. warship incorrectly identified the plane as a Tomcat fighter plane and fired on it.) The U.S. did not exactly admit guilt, but it allowed the case to be resolved at the World Court. I hope that outcome will be possible here, though it may not happen right away.

Another sad U.S. incident also related to war was the killing of Pat Tillman, a football player who enlisted out of loyalty to his country when he would have made a lot of money just averting his eyes and remaining a pro football player. The government didn't notify the family right away that friendly fire had killed him, but they did make the notification a short time later. Eventually there was a congressional investigation of the event. Again, the U.S. didn't rush to admit guilt, but there were ways of finding out and investigating the situation at the highest levels of government, and the facts were then laid out.

Bad things happen, especially in wars, but justice must be sought.

TMC said:

If watertight evidence comes out (satellite photos, physics calculations, shrapnel, video, confessions) that it was indeed a ground-to-air missile that was in the area controlled by separatists at the time, it will not be easy for the Russian media to accept this evidence. In fact, they probably won't. I don't know if there ever can be enough evidence for them to turn around and say "hey, we were wrong. we said it was Ukraine but it wasn't." Maybe they'll say it was a group of Ukrainian soldiers who had posed as separatists and infiltrated them, working with them undercover and gaining their trust so that they could perfom this act of terror and afterwards sneak back to Kiev?

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What you say makes sense in principle. The key words, though, are "watertight evidence". The Russian standpoint is that the disaster was at daytime. If it were ground to air missile BUK (2 big setups) the US could immediately show the images with the exact coordinates. It did not happen, and with each passing day the suspicion grows that if any pictures are presented it will be same type pictures as Collin Powell showed once.

[email protected] said:

The Russian standpoint is that the disaster was at daytime. If it were ground to air missile BUK (2 big setups) the US could immediately show the images with the exact coordinates.

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It's not just Russian standpoint. Every western man with brains also confused with their position. It's strange, isn't it? Especially after Obama's direct words that they have the photos. I have a lot of friends in Europe and Canada and thank God not everyone of them are blind to see it.

https://www.facebook.com/TheOliverStone/posts/815753228448978

Oliver Stone:

Who Shot Down the Malaysian Airliner?

This is too good to be true. After this massive rush to judgment by US media, please read these fascinating dissents from 2 honest investigative journalists who probe deeper than our propagandizing fourth estate. This is an unnecessarily dangerous situation brewing because of US politics--

Link: Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment by Robert Parry http://bit.ly/1n0ph9S

Link: It was Putin’s Missile! by Pepe Escobar
http://bit.ly/1zU5KNF

Link: What Did U.S. Spy Satellites See in Ukraine by Robert Parry http://bit.ly/1toJyXB

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Some people are starting to ask interesting questions. I wonder when we'll know the truth. Or at least more facts. It's just another theories, nothing more.

Snow63 said:

https://www.facebook.com/TheOliverStone/posts/815753228448978

Oliver Stone:


Some people are starting to ask interesting questions. I wonder when we'll know the truth. Or at least more facts. It's just another theories, nothing more.

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Oliver Stone? As a credible source??? Oliver "You Got a Really Crackpot Theory? I'll Make a Movie About It" Stone?????