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Thread: Triple Axel: Problem jump for current quad-jumpers?

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    Triple Axel: Problem jump for current quad-jumpers?

    There seem to be quite a few men today who can do quads, but struggle with the triple axel. Patrick Chan is the most famous example, but among the current juniors, the two frontrunners (Boyang Jin and Shoma Uno) seem to struggle more with axels than quads. While it is only speculation at this point, Jason Brown might be headed down this route; it seems like many are predicting him to get a quad but continue struggling on the 3A.

    Among past skaters, the only one I can remember with this problem is Stephane Lambiel. Other famous quad jumpers--Browning, Urmanov, Stojko, Kulik, Yagudin, Plushenko, Goebel, Joubert--had solid axels.

    Or perhaps there were always skaters, further down the ranks, who had this problem, and I simply don't know who they are because I didn't follow as closely back then.

    I am not here cry about the axel being a dying art (Yuzuru is the Olympic champion and he has some of the greatest axels ever ), or to complain about how many points it's worth (I actually agree with its points relative to the quad). I am simply wondering if this "good quad, not-so-good triple axel" is a recent trend, or if it has always been present (albeit in far smaller quantities than the reverse).

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    Interesting about what you said about Jason. Is he planning a quad in his program this year?

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    Petr Barna (1992 Olympic bronze medalist) was another who could do quads but not triple axel -- which he likened to jumping off a cliff.

    A lot the subskills necessary for good jumps apply to all jumps. But others vary depending on the takeoff. Different skaters often have different favorite and least-favorite jumps. At the top limits of difficulty in terms of in-air rotations, that will mean that different skaters may be able to do different difficult jumps.

    Same as some skaters can do quad salchow but not quad toe loop and vice versa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Petr Barna (1992 Olympic bronze medalist) was another who could do quads but not triple axel -- which he likened to jumping off a cliff.

    A lot the subskills necessary for good jumps apply to all jumps. But others vary depending on the takeoff. Different skaters often have different favorite and least-favorite jumps. At the top limits of difficulty in terms of in-air rotations, that will mean that different skaters may be able to do different difficult jumps.

    Same as some skaters can do quad salchow but not quad toe loop and vice versa.
    Thanks! I knew Barna was the '92 bronze medalist, but not much else. Just watched his performance in Albertville--not great triple-jump-wise, but nice lines and presentation.

    Would you say there are more of these "can do quad, can't do axel" skaters today, or that not much has changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skategmt View Post
    Interesting about what you said about Jason. Is he planning a quad in his program this year?
    I think no. I've just heard quite a few people saying they believe he'll get a quad, but don't think he'll ever perfect 3A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandpiper View Post
    Would you say there are more of these "can do quad, can't do axel" skaters today, or that not much has changed?
    Hard to say. 20-25 years ago, it was possible to get into the top 10 and occasionally even to medal without either. And only a handful of skaters were attempting quads at all.

    Surya Bonaly was another who was trying quads and not 3A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Hard to say. 20-25 years ago, it was possible to get into the top 10 and occasionally even to medal without either. And only a handful of skaters were attempting quads at all.

    Surya Bonaly was another who was trying quads and not 3A.
    I guess I mean from the "quad golden age," circa. 2002. Did any of the ~20 people who attempted quads in Salt Lake City struggle with their triple axel? But you're right, it's hard to compile stats from back then (pretty much just Stojko doing it consistently in his era, and even during the quad explosion, Eldredge managed to medal at Worlds without one).

    I didn't think of Surya. I guess my brain was trained on the guys, since so few women attempted either.

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    Did Miki Ando ever attempt the 3A? She landed the 4S as a junior, but I really don't know much about her.

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    From around the mid-1980's until the end of 6.0, you could not have a great placement without the 3A. Now, since there are so many ways to accrue points, and a quad is worth more points than any triple, it would not surprise me if a lot of men under-train their 3A in favor of quads.

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    Oh, another guy who comes to mind is Min Zhang, who landed a 4T and didn't attempt 3A at the 1994 Olympics when he was a teenager.

    Next heard from in 1999 when he became the first man to land a successful quad in a short program. He did have a triple axel by then.

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    Taking off forward has to feel like jumping off of a cliff - and then throw in the extra (at least) half rotation...it's a difficult jump. Could it be that there is SUCH an emphasis on having a quad that the skaters are not training the 3A as much as they used to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Could it be that there is SUCH an emphasis on having a quad that the skaters are not training the 3A as much as they used to?
    I doubt it. You might need a quad to be competitive, but you need a 3A to be taken seriously as a Senior Man at all.

    It's got to be something in the technique and method of training. I mean look at the Americans: Farris, Aaron, Abbott, Dornbush et al all have great 3As, but of those four only Aaron hits the quad with any consistency; but then you also have Rippon, Brown et al who don't seem to have command of the 3A yet. Now sadly Jason is young enough that the 3A is still possible for him to gain mastery over - he's close. Rippon...he's starting to get beyond it now. Which is confusing.

    There are plenty of talented ladies who don't get the 2A. I imagine the 3A as something similar for them.


    While we're on the subject of jump technique:

    Can someone please explain to me why Abbott and Miner's jumps give me the heebie-jeebies? They look...I don't know, somehow twisted or off-kilter in the air, especially when contrasted to Farris or Aaron or my favourite Russians. And the sort of "throw" into the air seems really pronounced somehow. I don't know, they just make me want to hide under the table. It obviously works for them, but...

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    Nam is doing 4S now even though his stalking; but we'll have to see what happens with the 3A still.

    It might be that after seeing Stephane, (and Patrick) the skaters start to think/realize that it's possible to have a great quad even if they're having trouble with axel. So they might think they are one of those (even if they might not be) and go for quad before mastering 3A.

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    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Axel is a different beast. Really different.

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    Re Nguyen, from yesterday's Orser article (emphasis added):
    On Tuesday, practice day at the autumn classic, Nguyen did two lovely quad Salchows, and the quad Salchow is to be part of his routine this week in Barrie. “There’s always milestones along the way,” Orser said. “It’s nice to have a new Big Boy jump because it takes the pressure off the Axels.
    http://bevsmithwrites.wordpress.com/...utumn-classic/

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    I don't know if I remember correctly, but Patrick Chan did good 3A, no problem, until he started training 4T. After that 3A started to be less consistent. I think it's all about technique and repeating the skills until you master them. Easy to say...

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