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Thread: France will not release Massot

  1. #31
    Yuzulia & Ruslena Team Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The "release permit" is nothing more than irrelevant piece of paper. What is the French federation going to do about it? Riot the ice?
    Oh well, you could say that about a lot of things but they're not so irrelevant. I need a visa for US, for example, if I want to stay more than 90 days. Should I call that an "irrelevant piece of paper" and challenge the police in the airport?
    There are a lot of rules in this world for which you do need permission. In this case they do need one from their federation.

    If Massot+Savchenko want to compete for Germany and they have it on good terms with the necessary people to be allowed into the competitions and have their music played, then nothing else matters.
    What do you mean? Isn't that called breaking the rules, making an exception, or dare I say even corruption?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    If Massot+Savchenko want to compete for Germany and they have it on good terms with the necessary people to be allowed into the competitions and have their music played, then nothing else matters.
    There is just one tiny problem with your reasoning. Skaters don't qualify for Europeans/worlds according to their own competitive results; it is the country who qualifies spots based on previous competitions. So Savchenko-Massot don't have automatic right to compete. It is the right of Germany to send certain amount of pair teams. And country's Federation decides who will represent the country. So even if Savchenko-Massot didn't care that if they do something dodgy such as bribing the music player into playing their music, or trying to break the rules by trying to compete although he has not been released, hoping that the ISU may want to avoid scandal and let them compete, I don't think the German Federation would be happy to break the rules because that would reflect badly on the whole country. So it is likely that the German Federation would not nominate them to represent Germany. Also, the German Federation would not want to get on bad terms with the ISU. ISU has the right to ban skaters for rule breaking. I am sure there would be some old hidden rule which would be so vaguely written that would enable them to punish Savchenko-Massot and the German Federation.

    Besides, it is not only someone to play their music. there is much more in the competition - the skaters have their accommodation booked. They have official practices. There is a warm up for certain amount of skaters, and the schedule is done with accuracy on minutes. You can't just sneak there an extra team. Would they have no official practices? Would suddenly there be an extra team at warm up? Would they have to also bribe the announcer to announce them?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Besides, it is not only someone to play their music. there is much more in the competition - the skaters have their accommodation booked. They have official practices. There is a warm up for certain amount of skaters, and the schedule is done with accuracy on minutes. You can't just sneak there an extra team. Would they have no official practices? Would suddenly there be an extra team at warm up? Would they have to also bribe the announcer to announce them?
    You forgot to mention that they would also have to bribe the judges to score them.

  4. #34
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattieu View Post
    Blades of Passion has clearly decided for some reason that skaters and federations are stupid as they can't interpret the rules the ways she does!
    Actually it's not me, but rather a lawyer who has provided me with the information and helped a skater with a disruptive federation. The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it, as they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation. It secondly is very easily bypassed by taking the steps I talked about. No permit is necessary as long as you inform the correct person within the ISU that you've applied for citizenship, sent them a copy of it, and informed the competition organizers.

  5. #35
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Actually it's not me, but rather a lawyer who has provided me with the information and helped a skater with a disruptive federation. The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it, as they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation. It secondly is very easily bypassed by taking the steps I talked about. No permit is necessary as long as you inform the correct person within the ISU that you've applied for citizenship, sent them a copy of it, and informed the competition organizers.
    Was the person in question a singles skater -- as opposed to a pair/dance partner?

    I can see that the language of Rule 109 would allow your scenario for a singles skater.
    But not for a skater who is a partner.

    ETA:

    And was the skater required to abide by the waiting periods that also are conditions of the rule? (The citizenship application alone meets only one of the necessary conditions for singles skaters, according to the language.)

    I would note also that Rule 109 does allow for some exceptions. Did the ISU grant a formal exception to the skater?
    5. Exceptions to paragraphs 2 & 3 of this Rule may be granted by the Council of the ISU, which may also enter a competitor for an event (see also Rule 115, paragraph 5 and Rules 130 and 131). A competitor nominated by the ISU does not count in the quota of the country of his nationality or residence.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Actually it's not me, but rather a lawyer who has provided me with the information and helped a skater with a disruptive federation. The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it, as they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation. It secondly is very easily bypassed by taking the steps I talked about. No permit is necessary as long as you inform the correct person within the ISU that you've applied for citizenship, sent them a copy of it, and informed the competition organizers.
    But I would imagine that any action would end up before some sort of legal body, whether a national civil court (or the European Community court) or an ISU panel, and that would take time to resolve. Having rights and proving that you have rights can be two different things. Remember when Tonya Harding insisted on skating for the U.S. at the Lillehammer Olympics. It was resolved quickly because the Olympics were going on right at that moment, but if it had not been resolved, Harding would have had no standing on the U.S. team. Here, with this pair, there is no timetable, and the matter could drag on for quite a long time, I'd imagine.

    Then there's the matter of skating's being a judged sport. If this pair alienates the judges from one country or another, it could make their progress difficult or impossible.

    As the Wicked Witch of the West says in the movie The Wizard of Oz (in Margaret Hamilton's immortal tones), "These things must be done DEL-icately."

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Actually it's not me, but rather a lawyer who has provided me with the information and helped a skater with a disruptive federation. The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it, as they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation. It secondly is very easily bypassed by taking the steps I talked about. No permit is necessary as long as you inform the correct person within the ISU that you've applied for citizenship, sent them a copy of it, and informed the competition organizers.
    I think skaters do enter into contractual agreements with their federations. Remember when Evan didn't return, because a mutually agreeable agreement could not be reached with the USFSA?. Are you telling me football players, baseball players are not the athletic property of their team? True, they are being paid always, but that even happens with the feds sometimes . I remember when the USFSA paid Kwan quite a fee to step in last minute at one of the GP events .

  8. #38
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The agreements for skaters are usually just for a season, so that really shouldn't be an issue.

  9. #39
    Yuzulia & Ruslena Team Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it.
    They should do that then.

    they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation.
    Isn't the country though who qualifies spots and actually even choose which skaters to send? So, the skaters do not have automatic rights to compete.

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