France will not release Massot
- Thread starter sillylionlove
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I am fairly fluent in French, and this release is somewhat incomprehensible, even for the French (whom I love, or I wouldn't be fairly fluent, 
The important part of the release says
"The youth of B. Massot constituting an important advantage to this association, if it would have found impossible for non-sporting related reasons ???(that's what it says, don't ask me) , the FFSG, following its policy regarding international transfers, has no intention of letting him compete for Germany. It (the fed) will keep him close at hand (literally in its breast), a sportsman of whom the world will soon recognize his real potential.
With this waiting (?), which is intended to be constructive and amicable with the German Federation, as seen in the two entities' relation at the ISU congress, yada yada (not in French), the FFSG will remain therefore attentive to the progress of this ambitious project and its European dimension." Whatever that means.
They are not letting Bruno go to Germany. Ever, it seems. Dunno about anywhere else.
The important part of the release says"The youth of B. Massot constituting an important advantage to this association, if it would have found impossible for non-sporting related reasons ???(that's what it says, don't ask me) , the FFSG, following its policy regarding international transfers, has no intention of letting him compete for Germany. It (the fed) will keep him close at hand (literally in its breast), a sportsman of whom the world will soon recognize his real potential.
With this waiting (?), which is intended to be constructive and amicable with the German Federation, as seen in the two entities' relation at the ISU congress, yada yada (not in French), the FFSG will remain therefore attentive to the progress of this ambitious project and its European dimension." Whatever that means.
They are not letting Bruno go to Germany. Ever, it seems. Dunno about anywhere else.
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It's not legal. People just think it is. Figure skating is such an isolated activity, with establishments that nobody challenges even though they could and should.
Furthermore, there is a degree of internal maneuvering than can be applied to remedy the situation. Once again, the competition organizer is what matters. If Massot+Savchenko want to compete for Germany and they have it on good terms with the necessary people to be allowed into the competitions and have their music played, then nothing else matters. The "release permit" is nothing more than irrelevant piece of paper. What is the French federation going to do about it? Riot the ice? No, I think not. After the pair competes, the performance they give will be irreversible. The federation would look like fools if they tried to discredit the pair at that point and there would be a monetary cost involved on their end as well.
People need to cut through the crap.
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Thanks to Mattieu for your helpful posts.
Also notable is that Rule 109 is cited explicitly in each of the official announcements for major international competitions and for ISU competitions.
For anyone interested, ISU Communication No. 1420 has a copy of the clearance form, as well as lots of other discussion of Rule 109.
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Perhaps this will help you to understand:
You only need to file. You could have no intention of eventually becoming a citizen but that doesn't matter, for non-Olympic events. There is nothing a country can do to "hold" a skater and not "release" them from competing in events for another country.
You only need to file. You could have no intention of eventually becoming a citizen but that doesn't matter, for non-Olympic events. There is nothing a country can do to "hold" a skater and not "release" them from competing in events for another country.
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What I do not understand:
You have cherry-picked one line out of context from Communication 1420 -- I do see your line on page 4 -- but I do not think that your line applies to Massot's case.
Also on page 4, right below your line, is the following:
The permit is neither required in case of a skater who forms a new pair or dance couple with a partner who is a citizen of the country of the Member which the pair or couple is going to represent, provided that such skater has never represented another Member.
As we all know, Massot has represented another Member.And the passage from Rule 109 itself that I have highlighted in bold below also says that a permit IS necessary in Massot's case. [ETA, Mattieu already quoted this passage earlier in the thread.]
2.
c) in the case of a pair or an ice dance couple, one partner at least must be a citizen of the country of the ISU Member for which the pair or dance couple competes. The other partner may be a citizen or resident of a country of any other Member. The residence and permit requirements and the waiting periods stated above in paragraph 2.b, (i), (ii), and (iii) and in paragraph 3 do not apply to such partner. However, if such partner has already represented another Member, regardless of the discipline, the permit from the Member the Skater represented is required and the waiting period 12 months from the day of the last competition in which the Skater represented another Member applies;
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What you just quoted is a separate qualification for needing a permit. The need for a permit is automatically overruled if you've applied for citizenship, in any case.
Some people are dissuaded simply by fear tactics. It's all empty rhetoric that can be cut through. There is nothing France can do to stop Massot, as long as he has taken the right steps.
Some people are dissuaded simply by fear tactics. It's all empty rhetoric that can be cut through. There is nothing France can do to stop Massot, as long as he has taken the right steps.
So you only have to apply for citizenship, not actually obtain it? For some countries, doesn't that possibly end with the skater being without citizenship anywhere (A Man without a Country). Seemingly, skaters do not know what you know. How does that happen? I see how they could compete in a competition other than an ISU one, but don't see how they could compete in an ISU one. The ISU , it seems to me, has the right to make its rules about their competitions.
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Sorry, not going to waste any more of my time discussing your cherry-picking, which remains unconvincing to me.
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I think you are right to not waste any more time on Blades of Passion.:agree:
Blades of Passion has clearly decided for some reason that skaters and federations are stupid as they can't interpret the rules the ways she does!
If only it were so simple
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Oh well, you could say that about a lot of things but they're not so irrelevant. I need a visa for US, for example, if I want to stay more than 90 days. Should I call that an "irrelevant piece of paper" and challenge the police in the airport?
There are a lot of rules in this world for which you do need permission. In this case they do need one from their federation.
What do you mean? Isn't that called breaking the rules, making an exception, or dare I say even corruption?
There is just one tiny problem with your reasoning. Skaters don't qualify for Europeans/worlds according to their own competitive results; it is the country who qualifies spots based on previous competitions. So Savchenko-Massot don't have automatic right to compete. It is the right of Germany to send certain amount of pair teams. And country's Federation decides who will represent the country. So even if Savchenko-Massot didn't care that if they do something dodgy such as bribing the music player into playing their music, or trying to break the rules by trying to compete although he has not been released, hoping that the ISU may want to avoid scandal and let them compete, I don't think the German Federation would be happy to break the rules because that would reflect badly on the whole country. So it is likely that the German Federation would not nominate them to represent Germany. Also, the German Federation would not want to get on bad terms with the ISU. ISU has the right to ban skaters for rule breaking. I am sure there would be some old hidden rule which would be so vaguely written that would enable them to punish Savchenko-Massot and the German Federation.
Besides, it is not only someone to play their music. there is much more in the competition - the skaters have their accommodation booked. They have official practices. There is a warm up for certain amount of skaters, and the schedule is done with accuracy on minutes. You can't just sneak there an extra team. Would they have no official practices? Would suddenly there be an extra team at warm up? Would they have to also bribe the announcer to announce them?
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Actually it's not me, but rather a lawyer who has provided me with the information and helped a skater with a disruptive federation. The ISU rule is firstly flawed if someone wanted to take them to court over it, as they are a business and they can not define skaters in such a way that would make them property of a country or a federation with whom they have no contractual obligation. It secondly is very easily bypassed by taking the steps I talked about. No permit is necessary as long as you inform the correct person within the ISU that you've applied for citizenship, sent them a copy of it, and informed the competition organizers.
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Was the person in question a singles skater -- as opposed to a pair/dance partner?
I can see that the language of Rule 109 would allow your scenario for a singles skater.
But not for a skater who is a partner. :no: :confused2:
ETA:
And was the skater required to abide by the waiting periods that also are conditions of the rule? (The citizenship application alone meets only one of the necessary conditions for singles skaters, according to the language.)
I would note also that Rule 109 does allow for some exceptions. Did the ISU grant a formal exception to the skater?
I would note also that Rule 109 does allow for some exceptions. Did the ISU grant a formal exception to the skater?
5. Exceptions to paragraphs 2 & 3 of this Rule may be granted by the Council of the ISU, which may also enter a competitor for an event (see also Rule 115, paragraph 5 and Rules 130 and 131). A competitor nominated by the ISU does not count in the quota of the country of his nationality or residence.
But I would imagine that any action would end up before some sort of legal body, whether a national civil court (or the European Community court) or an ISU panel, and that would take time to resolve. Having rights and proving that you have rights can be two different things. Remember when Tonya Harding insisted on skating for the U.S. at the Lillehammer Olympics. It was resolved quickly because the Olympics were going on right at that moment, but if it had not been resolved, Harding would have had no standing on the U.S. team. Here, with this pair, there is no timetable, and the matter could drag on for quite a long time, I'd imagine.
Then there's the matter of skating's being a judged sport. If this pair alienates the judges from one country or another, it could make their progress difficult or impossible.
As the Wicked Witch of the West says in the movie The Wizard of Oz (in Margaret Hamilton's immortal tones), "These things must be done DEL-icately."
I think skaters do enter into contractual agreements with their federations. Remember when Evan didn't return, because a mutually agreeable agreement could not be reached with the USFSA?. Are you telling me football players, baseball players are not the athletic property of their team? True, they are being paid always, but that even happens with the feds sometimes . I remember when the USFSA paid Kwan quite a fee to step in last minute at one of the GP events .
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The agreements for skaters are usually just for a season, so that really shouldn't be an issue.
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They should do that then.
Isn't the country though who qualifies spots and actually even choose which skaters to send? So, the skaters do not have automatic rights to compete.
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