Sasha's quad

okay, venturing to say something...

I watched a download of MK's Red Violin (Courtesy of the wonderful www.cruelladekwan.com site) from 2000, and in it Peggy Fleming mentioned (whether correctly or not, I don't know) after Michelle did a clean, 7 triple, 3T/3T program with lovely, interesting choreography (and a great haircut) IMO, that it was only the second time she'd done a *clean* program since 1998 Olympics...now, this says a few things to me.

First of all, Michelle, though she has been more consistent than anyone in her sport over a great span of time, which in itself is a testament to her competitive excellence, is human, not some consistency machine like she's made out to be, or like she has actually managed to be in recent years, and, like everyone else, she has gone through stages in her career, in the late 90's she was taking more risks in terms of both potential for error-prone programs and injuries, then, in the interest of longevity, or of continuing to win, or both, she may have decided to concentrate on clean, consistent 6 triple programs and on growing as an artist rather than adding the 3/3. (Sound familiar? I'm reminded of Robin's approach to Sasha's program...)

Why am I saying all this? It's not to knock Michelle, it's more to make the point that she hasn't been coasting along as perhaps may have been implied on this thread, but also not to make the opposite, Michelle is invulnerable, invincible, etc., and others, like Sasha, for example, just can't hold it together. Clean programs, especially when you're pushing that old envelope for difficult jump combos and the like (as both ladies were when they've had falls--though I won't deny that Michelle has been more consistent in doing clean programs than Sasha, though percentages aren't part of my point here), are difficult, whether you're a decorated veteran like MK or newer to the skating elite like Sasha; the ice is slippery and challenging for everyone, and not just because of shifty judging

I just mentioned Peggy's comment (and again, I'm relying on how factual it may be for this argument) because I'm tired of people (Peggy included, actually) ragging on Sasha's less-than-clean programs and presenting Michelle alongside her as this infallible paragon of consistency, forgetting Michelle's problems altogether in the first five years of her own career after winning World gold in '96. Though I applaud Michelle's remarkable consistency and competitive excellence, I think every great elite skater has growing pains at the top; I know Michelle won worlds before she started having these troubles for a few seasons, and Sasha didn't, but generally speaking, the bottom line is, having an absolutely clean program in high-stakes situations (for Michelle, it's defending her top spot and continuing to dominate against so many contenders for so long, for Sasha, it has been capitalizing on her immense talent and finally doing what people expect her to do, which is dominate) has proven difficult for EVERYONE, not just "can't-get-it-together" Sasha. I've already discussed the reasons for her particular problems in another thread, "Cohen's Swan Lake #2". When at the very top of the mountain, NOBODY coasts along, because it takes a tremendous amount of work to remain at the top of the mountain, and most do it by playing to their strengths, which for both Michelle and Sasha have been the artistic over the technical.

Sorry for dragging this off topic, but I wanted to talk about this somewhere.

Just for the record, I have preferences in skater's styles, ones I like more than others, but I have gushed about programs by most of these skaters, Sasha and Michelle included, and I really appreciate and have enormous respect for all of them as people and have no malicious intent or desire to bash anyone, ever, because they work so hard, all of them, to make this sport entertaining, exciting, and to stay at the top of their games year after year.

The only coasters I know of are the ones I put my drinks on while watching a great night of skating

Cheers!
Sarah

I agree, I think that we do hold sasha up to an unrealistic expectation of flawlessness. I have watched several of MK's old programs, and some times she is able to pull out a win with one or two small errors in a program... when sasha has these, dick and peggy give up on her.

I don't think the problem has been Sasha's small mistakes. She has in the past, seem to either run out of steam or just given up on her self. After a small mistake, she would end up with a fall or some other big mistake. In the CNN headline news bit she was talking up her promised quad. I know she has to be optomistic in order to do the jump, but given her history of back injury, the repeated practice needed to be consistent could come back to bite her. (JMHO)

Longhornliz said:

I agree, I think that we do hold sasha up to an unrealistic expectation of flawlessness. I have watched several of MK's old programs, and some times she is able to pull out a win with one or two small errors in a program... when sasha has these, dick and peggy give up on her.

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Not really, people are more or less stay on topic until someone decides to diss "a skater who was doing the same stuff for the past 10 years, and is coasting to hitch for olympic gold" and at the same time gush about Sasha. She was using her praise of Sasha to put down this unidentified skater, more or less saying Sasha is great and hard working, and the unidentified skater sucks. She vehemently denied that she was talking about Michelle Kwan, so it is obvious that she was trying to diss Irina. People started to defend Irina and Michelle and tried to point out that Sasha is not perfect either. I think Dick and Peggy are the greatest gushers of Sasha, how you get the idea that they gave up on Sasha? Why people brought Michelle into this discussion, I have no idea.

I think Sasha should practice the quad, it does not mean she has to land it, it does not mean she has to try it 50X a day.

I'm tired of people (Peggy included, actually) ragging on Sasha's less-than-clean programs and presenting Michelle alongside her as this infallible paragon of consistency

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Actually Sarah, in this thread, no one is ragging on Sasha, or presenting Michelle as infallible. If you read carefully you will see some poster decided to hold up Sasha as the expense or dissing of an unidenfied skater. Because of that some people started taking a closer look at Sasha, and she is not perfect either. This thread was moving on perfect, until that happened.

gezando said:

Not really, people are more or less stay on topic until someone decides to diss "a skater who was doing the same stuff for the past 10 years, and is coasting to hitch for olympic gold" and at the same time gush about Sasha. She was using her praise of Sasha to put down this unidentified skater, more or less saying Sasha is great and hard working, and the unidentified skater sucks. She vehemently denied that she was talking about Michelle Kwan, so it is obvious that she was trying to diss Irina. People started to defend Irina and Michelle and tried to point out that Sasha is not perfect either. I think Dick and Peggy are the greatest gushers of Sasha, how you get the idea that they gave up on Sasha? Why people brought Michelle into this discussion, I have no idea.

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Because it just so happened that it veered off topic, that happens, do forgive us all; I personally like to discuss every skater when I feel that discussions take a turn that will allow us to discuss our opinions on them positively, objectively, and respectfully. It's not about defending or dissing, at least I speak for myself in saying so; it's all about discussing, that far more positive "d-word"

I think the offending poster, if that was her intention, was chastised enough for that snipe; I didn't get into that one, but I do defend my own right to speak my mind, and the best of us go off-topic at times. To respond to Dick and Peggy giving up on Sasha, I commented at length on that in another thread but will sum my ideas up saying that they want perfect consistency to go along with their opinions on her artistry, body line, and extension, which they view as perfect. They want to see a skater whom they view as one of the most talented ever, and a US lady to boot, dominate as they feel she should dominate...no pressure, though So as soon as she has a near perfect skate but with a bobble of some sort, they say, "there's that mistake again" (and I'm quoting), EVEN though OTHERS, MANY OTHERS, in fact, EVERY other top skater in one situation or another (unless any of you can name for me a skater who NEVER made a single misstep in his/her eligible career, not one two-foot, not one popped jump, not one fall--NO ONE; and that was the point of my post that, granted, veered off topic and discussed Michelle in a way that I think no fan should find objectionable, but that's just me.

Even if a thread goes off-topic, I think that's far better than it going off-color and becoming all about defending or dissing or both.

Anyway, back on topic; I can't bring myself to get worked up about quads when Midori Ito's triple is still fresh in my mind However, if Sasha finds a way to work it into her training safely, it will make for increasingly exciting competition in the coming years. I do wonder why one would opt for a quad over a triple-triple, or vice versa; any takers on this subject? There are, of course, what each skater's strengths allows him/her to do more easily. Pros and cons of each in this, the age of upping the ante???

Sarah

Even if a thread goes off-topic, I think that's far better than it going off-color and becoming all about defending or dissing or both.

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You may call it discussing, but I see it as your right to defend your favorite skater too, and you come across as both defending and discussing. Maybe I do not get into every little thing Dick and Peggy said, my overall impression is that when it comes to Sasha they gush like a river. It is really a bit surprise to see people said that they gave her up. I know if you are a Sasha fan or any skater's fan you hang onto every small bit of seemingly negative or not 100% positive gush from the commentators.

To me, 2 3/3s would beat a quad. Now, would a quad and one 3/3 beat 2 3/3s, this is starting to sound like figure skating poker...

bronxgirl said:

To me, 2 3/3s would beat a quad. Now, would a quad and one 3/3 beat 2 3/3s, this is starting to sound like figure skating poker...

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Maybe, but some skaters practice a certain element for other reasons. Ando already has a quad sal, and two to three 3/3 and she is practicing quad toe loop, and quad loop.

I think strategically it is good for Sasha to practice the quad, she does not necessarily has to land it.

I don't quite relate to "fandom" in the fanatical, "don't-you-dare-diss-parage my skater" sense much. I'm not on Sasha's payroll, nor do I get emotional when I hear the slightest bit of negativity about her. I enjoy her skating as I do that of many others. I just think that in a sport where perfect, technically difficult programs are hard to come by and at the same time remain the elusive goal that every competitor aspires to attain, it's particularly unfortunate that any misstep is blamed (particularly by Dick and Peggy) as lack of focus when there are other factors at work, and to hear them talk about it, errors, whether large or small, on Sasha's part are tantamount to a meltdown.

If I get irritated with their commentating, part of it IS because of that excessive build-up to the skies over how perfect in every respect her skating is, only to dismiss her as a head case who'll never be able to put it together if there's a bobble or fall. IMHO NO ONE should have to step on the ice with that kind of buildup, buzz, and chatter constantly circulating (perhaps utopian of me, as this is no means a perfect world) around them--she's so perfect, so this, so that...people, no matter what a skater's phenomenal strengths as skater, s/he is HUMAN and prone to failings, so maybe it will surprise you, but Dick and Peggy's gushfest about Sasha right up until there's a glitch in her routine, which happens to everyone, bothers me just as much as the "dropping like a hot potato" that I feel happens. Sure, they want her to fulfill her potential, but who's to say that she isn't working to do that already, LP errors and all? Were Dick and Peggy always perfect in their day? I doubt it, because NO ONE is, so such buildup, for ANY skater, is unrealistic, irrational even. That's my point in a nutshell.

Again, this is what I read into (only slightly) more subtle comments, which everybody is prone to doing, but others (and not just "Sasha fans") have noticed re: Dick and Peggy. See, among others, eyria's comments on Cohen Swan Lake #2 thread, if you're interested. So, neither am I fanatical about Sasha, nor do I have a problem with criticism of her, or anyone, as long as it stays on the constructive side and evolves with the particular problems the skater is having at the moment, rather than dwelling on the exact same ol' same ol', or summing up those problems simplistically ("lack of focus", says Peggy). Some will say, well, it is the same ol' same ol' with Sasha and her falls, but I think that everyone begins anew at every competition, and it's not fair to any skater's constant quest for development to continually draw parallels to the failings of the past.

Sarah

Sarah you don't come across as fanatical at all. When it comes to Dick and Peggy's negative remarks, honestly, it is hard for me to detect the little subtle thing "she did it again". Becuase my attention is more directed to the blatant negativity they show towards non USA skaters. How often have we heard, "Irina's spiral is not up to standard of Sasha's" "Fumie should not even try Swan Lake....., she is not as balletic as Sasha.."

gezando said:

Sarah you don't come across as fanatical at all. When it comes to Dick and Peggy's negative remarks, honestly, it is hard for me to detect the little subtle thing "she did it again". Becuase my attention is more directed to the blatant negativity they show towards non USA skaters. How often have we heard, "Irina's spiral is not up to standard of Sasha's" "Fumie should not even try Swan Lake....., she is not as balletic as Sasha.."

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ITA Gezando!!! Dude (I don't know if you're male or female, but I call all my friends dude regardless of gender, especially when I'm p'oed about something), can I just TELL you how much that irritates me?!?!?!?!? It seriously undermines any respect I might ever have had for them as commentators, and I'm so glad you brought that up. You NEVER hear them nitpicking that the US girls, despite their beautiful artistry, don't have the high jumps of a Julia Sebestyen or a Vika.... And will you get a load of what Peggy said just before Michelle took the ice to deliver the beautiful Red Violin performance: "Michelle has to skate first in the final group, the worst possible situation...but I think the Russian girls, Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, will mess up a bit" practically grinning and winking at Terry and Dick and mugging for the camera. Compared to this flagrant bias, I totally see what you mean, but it also relates to what I get for them re: Sasha---they want SOOO badly to have two American heavyweights securing the highest possible placements for the home team, aside from appreciating her skating, that they praise her through the roof and if she should fall, thereby risking her medal standing and giving a higher placement to a non-American skater, you can hear the air wheezing out of their deflated, burst bubble:sheesh:

Back to the quad, I don't know about the "figure skating poker" of two 3/3s beating a quad, at least if the sport is headed in the same direction as the men's before it. I don't think Johnny Weir would have medaled with 2 3/3s when a quad is the hard trick du jour...however, since they're not consistent (nor likely to become so, considering the injury risks the average female skater, not necessarily genetically gifted jumpers a la Midori Ito), I think things may develop differently in the women's sport, and then the 2 3/3s would beat a quad. Also, the 3 JUMP combo is a thrilling alternative as far as upping the ante... I was watching little Mao Asada do her 3F-3L-3T---sooo funny and amazing to watch her dig her little right toe pick in joyfully gritty determination to tack on yet another triple

Sarah

gezando said:

When it comes to Dick and Peggy's negative remarks, honestly, it is hard for me to detect the little subtle thing "she did it again". Becuase my attention is more directed to the blatant negativity they show towards non USA skaters. How often have we heard, "Irina's spiral is not up to standard of Sasha's" "Fumie should not even try Swan Lake....., she is not as balletic as Sasha.."

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They do often compare everyone to Sasha but they still have plenty of positive things to say. Dick liked Fumie's short program and thought it was a good style for her and has commented before on her fast spins. And I remember him saying that when Shizuka lands a jump, it's like "caressing the ice" and that he loves her moves in the field and Peggy liked her layback. They've also mentioned the spring in Julia's and Irina's jumps. Just because they're Sasha-obsessed doesn't mean they don't like other skaters

gezando- I did not mean to put down MK in my post, I was just pointing out that commentators are sometimes a little hypocritical in their expectations of perfect skates. I have heard dick and peggy comment when michelle has a bobble or mistake "she's allowed to do that from time to time." I think the "story" behind sasha that they like to present is that she is the flawed would be champion.... I realize that in previous season she was prone to much more disastorous programs, but I think she had made vast improvements this season. Her mistakes were never program ending give up kind of mistakes... but people arent willing to give up on the "story" that sasha cant reach her potential.

Now I'm not claiming that they are painting sasha in an unfair light, I just think its a little bit propaganda to build drama into the broadcast. Its good for ratings, and it helps the casual watcher who may not know the history of the past few seasons get drawn into the competition.

Each skater has a "story"... Michelles is the quest for the ellusive gold medal, Irina's is the family drama, sasha's is her inconsistency and that she "cracks" in her lp.

In think Mchelle has been coasting for 10 years. So there!

Arablady225 said:

In think Mchelle has been coasting for 10 years. So there!

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Wow..."so there!" What a great way to contribute to this thread.

I think you have two heads. So there!

Arablady225 said:

In think Mchelle has been coasting for 10 years. So there!

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Is this in code? I lost my ring from the cereal box.

By the way, a lovely way to introduce yourself to this forum.

Originally posted by Arablady225

In think Mchelle has been coasting for 10 years. So there!

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Welcome to GS Arablady! What a lovely thing to say about Michelle. Her skating is so effortless that she does appear to be coasting over the ice. You will find lots of fellow Michelle fans here who share your admiration for Empress Kwan.

At Piel! Whoo hoo!


Kasey, who is quite certain that yes, Kwan has only been "gifted" with her success for ten years, and all her accolades. Damn those women who couldn't stay on their feet or know artistry from shineola!

They do often compare everyone to Sasha but they still have plenty of positive things to say. Dick liked Fumie's short program and thought it was a good style for her and has commented before on her fast spins

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Interesting that you mention Dick like Fumie's short program. He also discredits her long program (Mozart music) as "she does not have enough stretch to do this kind of program" If he thinks that having stretch is the criteria to skating a Mozart program then IMHO he does not know enough about Mozart's music. I will even go further to say IMHO, Fumie is much better suit to skate to Mozart's music than Sasha. Even though he said he liked Fumie's short program it is in the context of this is the only kind of music that Fumie can skate to with her limitation of not having enough stretch like Sasha.

I think Dick and Peggy's Sasha gushing are way over the top.

but I think the Russian girls, Slutskaya and Butyrskaya, will mess up a bit

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I remember that, but IIRC Terry, Dick and Peggy were doing the prediction again. Dick picked Irina, Terry picked Maria and Peggy played along to pick Michelle, of course she did not have to say that she think the Russians will mess up.