Lipnitskaya vs. Edmunds

I understand why compare them.

This is Polina in the off season https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FsTyQsoTCA
honestly the best Yulia´s performance is not ahead of this, at least they are same. Yes Yulia had better program, Polina can to get a better program, costume and improve her spins (though they are not bad), but for Yulia is difficult to get better jumps and Polina doesn´t lip or flutz. Step seq is so so in both of them. Polina is a lot more elegant than Anna P. , Gracie and Elena, with better posture. Though Elena is more expressive and fluid in her performances.
The only big difference, and I know is not a little thing is that Yulia is super consistent, with nerves of steel.

As a musician and a music teacher I always prefer the musicality - how the skater feels and express the music, how he/she shows and interprets the nuances, rhythm changes, etc. And is the interpretation genuine or just kind of acted. The limit between "acting" and "interpretation" is sometimes very unclear.

But when I see Yulia skating I see nothing but acting. She is awesome with her jumps and spins but she always leaves me cold. She skates through the program and it doesn't matter if there's music or not.

I saw Polina first time in Olympics and she really touched me. Trust me, I'm really bored of Grieg's Peer Gynt but Polina interpreted it wonderfully. She had really good touch with the music and she just didn't skate the program through. So in this field I prefer Polina so much more.

Sandpiper said:

I love how you pick the LP Polina skated clean on versus the LP Yulia fell in. What is the gap between clean Polina at Worlds versus clean Yulia at Team Event/Europeans? Also, if we're just talking TES, then Polina also beat Mao there too...

Click to expand...

I don't like to compare scores across different panels/competitions for TES or PCS, so choices were limited because of Edmunds' competitive experience. Also, I would never choose to take the Russian skaters' scores at the Olypmics at face value. It's not like Lipnitskaya was even terrible at Worlds, just the one fall (which I acknowledged), and my point isn't really concerning the TES directly anyway.

I wanted to point out that Lipnitskaya is not out of reach in TES (especially if she's doesn't land everything), but what sets her really apart is her PCS. I don't think Lipnitskaya deserves 8 points more than Edmunds in PCS, and obviously Edmunds hasn't competed long enough to build any sort of reputation, but Lipnitskaya still has a sizable gap over the rest of the field especially with all the retirements. In the coming years if any of the young/relatively inexperienced girls, including Edmunds, prove themselves consistently, then we will see that PCS gap deservedly shrink and make the playing field more even and harder for Lipnitskaya to dominate.

It's interesting to read how many people view Lipnitskaya as "the one to beat", like the one to whom the others need to catch up and so on.
But I think it's true.
Even the Hardcore fans of other skaters.... of the ladies competing next season, is there anyone who has comparable results?
I don't think there is. (Not even gonna talk about Sotnikova's Gold medal in Sochi. But even if I did it would only be the one internationally)
So... she really seems to be the one to beat IF Adelina does not become consistent this season.

And about the "She only has success cause of Schindler's List"...if you look at her record before that program. .. let's just say it's not too bad ;D

AnnaTheMusician said:

As a musician and a music teacher I always prefer the musicality - how the skater feels and express the music, how he/she shows and interprets the nuances, rhythm changes, etc. And is the interpretation genuine or just kind of acted. The limit between "acting" and "interpretation" is sometimes very unclear.

But when I see Yulia skating I see nothing but acting. She is awesome with her jumps and spins but she always leaves me cold. She skates through the program and it doesn't matter if there's music or not.

I saw Polina first time in Olympics and she really touched me. Trust me, I'm really bored of Grieg's Peer Gynt but Polina interpreted it wonderfully. She had really good touch with the music and she just didn't skate the program through. So in this field I prefer Polina so much more.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I watched Lipniskaia's Schindlers List LP and found it confusing to follow because her skating and the music in the background were two separate things. Her moves weren't in sync with the music. You could've superimposed a different piece of music over the program altogether and I wouldn't have noticed a difference. She didn't so much leave me cold as she left me very confused and scratching my head.

The one skater that has superb musicality (the best out of all skaters currently) is Elena Radianova. That girl really EMOTES the music without resorting to amateur gimmicks like exaggerated facial expressions. You could put a paper bag over her head and I would still be able to feel what she's expressing.

Before the Lipniskaia fans come out with pitchforks after me, I will say that Lipniskaia has great qualities going for her and I'm excited to see how she develops.

It is still so early for BOTH young ladies. Since this can never be anything but speculation at this time why not also pose the question, might these two be the sharp edge of a new American, Russian figure skating rivalry, not seen since the days of Michelle and Irena? It is always fun to speculate this early because one never knows at this point in time and all things are fair game.

I think if Yulia retired tomorrow it would be hard for Polina to ever catch up to her accomplishments.

RABID said:

It is still so early for BOTH young ladies. Since this can never be anything but speculation at this time why not also pose the question, might these two be the sharp edge of a new American, Russian figure skating rivalry, not seen since the days of Michelle and Irena? It is always fun to speculate this early because one never knows at this point in time and all things are fair game.

Click to expand...

Ireally don't think they will built "THE next great rivalry" in skating, nerver.
Edmunds could not possibly be considered a threat to Yulia...(yet)
I think the only acknowledgable rivalry and fight for gold in the future will be among the Russian youngsters, if no one gets injured, probably between Lip/Sot/Rad.

I'd give Yulia the edge, though I have to confess not being a strong partisan for either.

Polina is probably better than Yulia in terms of musicality, but only if we take that narrowly to mean musical timing. There's no doubt Yulia often gets the timing off, but I think Yulia articulates the character of the musical composition better and carries herself better. Take Polina's much-praised arm gestures. At times they are nice, but often they are randomly injected without regard to whether it is appropriate for the musical character and certainly aren't performed to accentuate the musical nuances (her Glacier's LP is particularly dreadful in this regard). Part of this is choreography issues, but not exclusively. Someone above mentioned an 8 point gap in PCS in WC14, where Polina went clean and Yulia fell. That seems a bit much, especially with a fall, but a 4-5 point gap doesn't strike me as unreasonable. Yulia has obviously superior skater skills and handles the transitions and moves-in-the-field better. I'd have comparable marks for interpretation, but Yulia radiates the musical character better so I'd have her performance / composition marks a bit higher. Polina's choreography is just blah, so if she had better choreo I'd have maybe her edging out Yulia slightly.

Jumpwise - Polina does have an appropriate Lutz, which Yulia does not, and has overall better technique, but I find Polina's flow awkward and uneasy, especially when she attempts that clunky 1Lo + 3S, and she telegraphs some of her jumps badly. Yulia has minimal height, but her flow is decent, though could be much better, especially on that 2A + 2T / 3T + 2T thing, but part of that is her double axel is blah - though I saw improvement at WC14. If Polina's flow and speed were better, I'd have her substantially above Yulia in this regard since she has better technique and height, but not until then since I personally value flow & speed over clunky "big" jumps. Also, Yulia has substantially better spins, obviously, and her step sequences have a lot better flow, edging, speed etc.

So, overall, I'd place Yulia on top, even though I do think Polina has better musical timing and superior gestures and posture.

Part of Polina's problem though is that her programs suck (though I hated that grotesque Schindler's List LP). If I gave Galina Ulanova crap choreography and made her dance to dreadful music, it would look like garbage no matter how talented she was.

Julia is better than Polina and I think Elena Radionova will do better than both this year. That girl has "it" in spades.

shingalas said:

I don't like to compare scores across different panels/competitions for TES or PCS, so choices were limited because of Edmunds' competitive experience. Also, I would never choose to take the Russian skaters' scores at the Olypmics at face value. It's not like Lipnitskaya was even terrible at Worlds, just the one fall (which I acknowledged), and my point isn't really concerning the TES directly anyway.

I wanted to point out that Lipnitskaya is not out of reach in TES (especially if she's doesn't land everything), but what sets her really apart is her PCS. I don't think Lipnitskaya deserves 8 points more than Edmunds in PCS, and obviously Edmunds hasn't competed long enough to build any sort of reputation, but Lipnitskaya still has a sizable gap over the rest of the field especially with all the retirements. In the coming years if any of the young/relatively inexperienced girls, including Edmunds, prove themselves consistently, then we will see that PCS gap deservedly shrink and make the playing field more even and harder for Lipnitskaya to dominate.

Click to expand...

You don't want to compare the Olympics scores. Fair enough. But comparing the scores when one of them had a double downgraded fall vs. the other one being clean is even worse. This only works if, most of the time, Yulia has one fall in the LP while Polina is clean. But the reality is the exact opposite.

All your statements are speculation. Yulia has proven herself and Polina has not. I could make the same argument that if Maxim Kovtun skates clean he'll be able to match Yuzuru Hanyu over time and make it hard for Hanyu to dominate. But a "Yuzuru Hanyu or Maxim Kovtun" thread would look like overhyping at this point.

AnnaTheMusician said:

As a musician and a music teacher I always prefer the musicality - how the skater feels and express the music, how he/she shows and interprets the nuances, rhythm changes, etc. And is the interpretation genuine or just kind of acted. The limit between "acting" and "interpretation" is sometimes very unclear.

But when I see Yulia skating I see nothing but acting. She is awesome with her jumps and spins but she always leaves me cold. She skates through the program and it doesn't matter if there's music or not.

I saw Polina first time in Olympics and she really touched me. Trust me, I'm really bored of Grieg's Peer Gynt but Polina interpreted it wonderfully. She had really good touch with the music and she just didn't skate the program through. So in this field I prefer Polina so much more.

Click to expand...

you speak my mind. among Russian wonder babies. Yulia is absolutely the hottest one currently. if you believe in gold medals, world ranking, and all that stuff.. Yes she is the best. But skating-wise, I much prefer Radionova, Anna P, Serafima etc...
because, they all showed superior musicality than Yulia.
and not only just musicality, also the sense of dance, body awareness etc...
another thing that make me lose my focus (besides musicality, although musicality is the biggest problem) when trying to appreciate Yulia's SL is that, her poses although has lots of "wow" fact but not pleasing aesthetically, something is a little off (e.g. awkward elbow/arms). Have seen many young skaters both male and female showed better body awareness than Yulia.
Technique wise, she is also not the strongest, since lots of Russian wonder babies and a few young skaters from other countries can also do a 7-triple program, some even have better jumping technique and skating skills.
Yulia's strongest forte is adorable face, flexibility and consistency, and that's not figure skating all about, kinda similar to that, I may shed a few tears when I spot a breath-taking beautiful lady or the cutest puppy, but that's not figure skating either.
Well, all these are my personal preferences regarding figure skating, if Yulia is appealing to the majority market. then good for her.

YLFan said:

I think if Yulia retired tomorrow it would be hard for Polina to ever catch up to her accomplishments.

Click to expand...

I bet my car, my house, my dog and left arm that Yulia will have more medals than Polina, Gracie and Ashley combined when they retire.

yyyskate said:

Yulia's strongest forte is adorable face, flexibility and consistency, and that's not figure skating all about, kinda similar to that, I may shed a few tears when I spot a breath-taking beautiful lady or the cutest puppy, but that's not figure skating either.
Well, all these are my personal preferences regarding figure skating, if Yulia is appealing to the majority market. then good for her.

Click to expand...

That's not your personal preferences about figure skating--that's your personal perceptions of Yulia. People who actually like her don't like her because of "adorable face" (are you saying Polina has a not-so-adorable face?!) They like her character-driven programs, her "wow" spins, or how she flies into her jumps with no preparation. Something about her skating touched them, and that emotional resonance is what figure skating is about. So is consistency, btw. That's why we don't give medals to people who fall five times, or at least don't in well judged competitions.

AnnaTheMusician said:

As a musician and a music teacher I always prefer the musicality - how the skater feels and express the music, how he/she shows and interprets the nuances, rhythm changes, etc. And is the interpretation genuine or just kind of acted. The limit between "acting" and "interpretation" is sometimes very unclear.

But when I see Yulia skating I see nothing but acting. She is awesome with her jumps and spins but she always leaves me cold. She skates through the program and it doesn't matter if there's music or not.

I saw Polina first time in Olympics and she really touched me. Trust me, I'm really bored of Grieg's Peer Gynt but Polina interpreted it wonderfully. She had really good touch with the music and she just didn't skate the program through. So in this field I prefer Polina so much more.

Click to expand...

:agree: As a musician myself (first a flutist, now a singer) I feel much the same. Yulia is extremely talented and her spins are nothing short of astounding but she has yet to touch me on an emotional level. This season, here's hoping she will! OTOH, although Polina still needs to develop her artistry, to me she has much more innate musicality and my sense is that she really does feel her music more deeply. She's very young, but she's already very expressive. IMO her potential in that area is enormous, so I hope she can keep improving her technique and also maintain her consistency.

I will say this, though: after watching Europeans this year, I posted on another GS thread that Yulia/Polina would be one of skating's next great rivalries. That was before becoming aware of Radionova and also Serafima (can't remember her last name), both of whom are fine skaters and also very musical. So who knows? There's so much to admire in all 4 girls so let's just wish them the best and enjoy the show!

Oh my - is Yulia going to be the next Plushenko where the fans are so rabid they can't see the forest for the trees? As I said before, I think she's a very talented skater but I do think she was too young to fully appreciate SL and "feel" it. I agree that Yulia and Polina will be great rivals at some point but there are other lady skaters that have a lot of talent as well. And the ice is slippery.

Hello Skatedreamer
Mostly agree with everything and I myself as a cello player and someone who performs and writes music as a second job(you can only make so much at an ice rink) I actually was very moved by Yulia's musicality. It's not traditional in any way and to me is subtle as most cello movements that I have performed. Often the cello is lost in the sound of sweeping brass and melodic character of violins but it is still there all the same for people to enjoy. Some skaters rely on their ability to connect to the crowd and do so thru smiles and various gestures designed to entice them. Never mind the fact that they are of course planned and not necessarily even true emotions felt in that actual moment. Im not discounting this but lets face it...everything is planned and people are susceptible to its influences planned or not. I guess that's a whole different topic really but it seems relevant here.

My point is that I and I think most of Yulia's fans couldn't care less if people say I don't feel anything or she leaves me cold. It's when people say she can't hear music or she doesn't present "real" emotions that people get upset. There is a very good reason she got standing ovations at nearly every competition this year. She simply performs her programs her way to the very best of her abilities and the reactions have been very warm for good reason and show she is connecting to them.. Does that mean skaters who failed to do so are any less of talents or not as pleasing. Of course not and most of her fans aren't intersted in that discussion.

Polina on the other hand is much more traditional and has a different sense of music. The music shapes her arm movements and is a vehicle she uses to draw emotion from herself where as Yulia has a program of very precise movements set to music. IMO one becomes the music where as the other makes the music. YMMV and I think that is all right.

Serafima's last name is Sakhanovich and she is very musical indeed

I think Elena is everyones biggest threat and for good reason. That girl can skate.

Sandpiper said:

You don't want to compare the Olympics scores. Fair enough. But comparing the scores when one of them had a double downgraded fall vs. the other one being clean is even worse. This only works if, most of the time, Yulia has one fall in the LP while Polina is clean. But the reality is the exact opposite.

All your statements are speculation. Yulia has proven herself and Polina has not. I could make the same argument that if Maxim Kovtun skates clean he'll be able to match Yuzuru Hanyu over time and make it hard for Hanyu to dominate. But a "Yuzuru Hanyu or Maxim Kovtun" thread would look like overhyping at this point.

Click to expand...

Of course everything is speculation at this point LOL it's the off-season what else are we supposed to do but speculate and whine about judging.

Lipnitskaya is obviously the leader at this point and I don't think anyone would argue against it. If she doesn't fall she is deservedly going to be hard to beat, but in the case that she does fall like she did at Worlds and in the Sochi individual competition, then I don't think her PCS should hold her up above close competitors with comparable skating quality.

I'm not sure the Kovtun/Hanyu comparison is valid because Hanyu>Kovtun in both TES and PCS (GOEs, BV, SS, TR, even PE/IN arguably) and Hanyu deserves the higher PCS he gets over Kovtun, unlike Edmunds and Lipnitskaya who I think are about equal in SS (although Lipnitskaya has better TR,CH and Edmunds better IN,PE imo) so in a clean competition Lipnitskaya>Edmunds in TES but Lipnitskaya should =Edmunds in PCS. How the judges mark the two going forward is of course a whole different story (also dependent on quality of their programs, momentum, etc).

If someone wanted to make a thread arguing for Kovtun though I would be fascinated to hear their reasoning. Surely there's an argument in there somewhere regarding their 4S (lack of) success rates

noskates said:

Oh my - is Yulia going to be the next Plushenko where the fans are so rabid they can't see the forest for the trees? As I said before, I think she's a very talented skater but I do think she was too young to fully appreciate SL and "feel" it. I agree that Yulia and Polina will be great rivals at some point but there are other lady skaters that have a lot of talent as well. And the ice is slippery.

Click to expand...

People are feel to think whatever about Yulia. But it would be quite erroneous to say that Yulia only has fans because of her "adorable face." That's planting words into people's mouths (or rather, thoughts into people's heads), with no basis in reality.

If Yulia is the next Plushenko, this thread becomes even more pointless. She'll easily dominate the next four years and we wouldn't be able to call anyone a rival. (Who would Polina be in this case? :think: Johnny Weir combined with Timothy Goebel?)

shingalas said:

I'm not sure the Kovtun/Hanyu comparison is valid because Hanyu>Kovtun in both TES and PCS (GOEs, BV, SS, TR, even PE/IN arguably) and Hanyu deserves the higher PCS he gets over Kovtun, unlike Edmunds and Lipnitskaya who I think are about equal in SS (although Lipnitskaya has better TR,CH and Edmunds better IN,PE imo) so in a clean competition Lipnitskaya>Edmunds in TES but Lipnitskaya should =Edmunds in PCS. How the judges mark the two going forward is of course a whole different story (also dependent on quality of their programs, momentum, etc).

Click to expand...

Whoever you prefer in PCS, especially the highly subjective areas like IN, PE, is up to debate and of course no one's wrong. But the reality is, Yulia is on another level compared to Polina at this point, just like Hanyu is compared to Kovtun. One could easily argue Hanyu doesn't deserve his PCS--I've actually heard this argument before (not with relation to Kovtun, of course, but with relation to Patrick Chan). I do think Polina a much more musical and interesting skater than Kovtun, btw. But it boils down to the same thing: Comparing the field leader to a random skater of the same age. Not much of a rivalry.

If someone wanted to make a thread arguing for Kovtun though I would be fascinated to hear their reasoning. Surely there's an argument in there somewhere regarding their 4S (lack of) success rates

Click to expand...

What's there to compare? Both their quad salchows suck.

I wanna ask one question: if a kid is not very gifted in innate musicality, it is possible for s/he develop musicality through training to the top level. or is it more of a innate thing.