"Tanos" and increasing jump difficulty | Golden Skate

"Tanos" and increasing jump difficulty

aromaticchicken

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 22, 2014
Like many of us, I just today watched both Evgenia Medvedeva's LP and SP skates at the Jr. GP Courchevel... and, whoa, excessive use of the 'tano' hand over the head position?! I get that it garners extra GOE, but at a certain point it comes across as gimmicky/tacky, and distracts from the jumps themselves.

Though this may be reflected in lower interpretation/presentation scores, who bets that programs like these will end up being banned by the ISU, and we'll have a limit to how often you can use this position in jumps? (Similar to how the Bielmann position was eventually limited in frequency of use in programs)

Here's her short program, where she uses it on
  • 2A
  • 3F in the 3F-3T combo
  • 3Lz
(so all three jump elements)

and here's her long program, where she uses it on

  • 3F in the 3F-3T combo
  • 3Lz
  • 3F
  • both 2Ts in her 3Lo-2T-2T combo
  • 2A
  • 2A
so literally on every jump element except her 3S-3T...


By the way, her coaches are clearly doing whatever they can to garner her points, with her reserving almost all of her jumps to second half to get the bonus. She's clearly an amazing jumper (though with flutzing), but at some point the use of the arm lacks a little class and screams "I'm trying to get all the GOE points you can give me, ever!!!" rather than showing a balanced and classy program.

Thoughts?
 

shiroKJ

Back to the forest you go.
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Her jumps are tiny. :unsure: Anyways, the arm positions are a bit distracting so I'd be okay if they put a limit on it.

And I don't like her FS music. It was cut so awkwardly. :slink:
 

essence_of_soy

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
The IJS is all about limiting creativity and conversely scoring points, unfortunately. So many of the programs look the same these days.

If this is Medvedeva's 'thing', I say, why not.
 

Wo|flax

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
I don't think it's the worst thing in the world- all skaters strategize to try to get the highest score they possibly can.
It's a matter of opinion what's 'blatant' and what's not. The tano used sparingly can be beautiful and add to the interpretation (I love Jason's in Riverdance, or a double tano in soft music). These tanos really adds nothing, but it was interesting to see on an axel. For me it doesn't take away either- but possibly only because she's rotating so fast and the jumps are over quickly.
 

mirai4life

1Lo <
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
I don't think it's the worst thing in the world- all skaters strategize to try to get the highest score they possibly can.
It's a matter of opinion what's 'blatant' and what's not. The tano used sparingly can be beautiful and add to the interpretation (I love Jason's in Riverdance, or a double tano in soft music). These tanos really adds nothing, but it was interesting to see on an axel. For me it doesn't take away either- but possibly only because she's rotating so fast and the jumps are over quickly.

agree
 

Krunchii

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
I think she shows a lot of promise but yeah I thought the tano arms were excessive, kind of like spamming, should be done sparingly, for example when Yuna did her 2A-2T-2Lo and then she did the tano arm on the 2Lo and it was like a pleasant surprise, very nice, same with Serafima, her tano arm is on the second jump in her 3-3 is also very nice.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Tano jumps are rewarded more GOE because they are technically more difficult. Whoever decided that tano jumps are meant to be done sparingly to add "contrast"? GOE is part of the TES score after all.

And what's wrong with doing whatever you can to score higher points? That is the point of a "competition". How is doing all tano jumps "limiting creativity"? If this is so, isn't doing all non-tano-jumps the same? Just because you don't like the look of a tano jump doesn't mean it's not "creative". Personally, I love the look of a tano jump - it looks so graceful and vibrant and flowing as compared to a normal jump where the skater scrunches their whole body together like they're bracing for impact. I don't see any reason for limiting the number of such lovely jumps, and if ISU doesn't as well, that's fine.

Define "gimmicky". A "gimmick" is a device used to trick someone. Getting higher GOE by doing something you're good at many times isn't a "trick" or a "deception". It's a legit way of showcasing your talent in that area. If Evgenia is good at tano jumps and that's her distinctive move, she should go right ahead and do them. If she limits what she's good at doing or known for, what makes her special/distinctive compared to other skaters?
 
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satine

v Yuki Ishikawa v
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I think it's overkill too, but don't we have enough restrictions as it is? :frown:
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Tano jumps are rewarded more GOE because they are technically more difficult. Whoever decided that tano jumps are meant to be done sparingly to add "contrast"? GOE is part of the TES score after all.

And what's wrong with doing whatever you can to score higher points? That is the point of a "competition". How is doing all tano jumps "limiting creativity"? If this is so, isn't doing all non-tano-jumps the same? Just because you don't like the look of a tano jump doesn't mean it's not "creative". Personally, I love the look of a tano jump - it looks so graceful and vibrant and flowing as compared to a normal jump where the skater scrunches their whole body together like they're bracing for impact. I don't see any reason for limiting the number of such lovely jumps, and if ISU doesn't as well, that's fine.

Define "gimmicky". A "gimmick" is a device used to trick someone. Getting higher GOE by doing something you're good at many times isn't a "trick" or a "deception". It's a legit way of showcasing your talent in that area. If Evgenia is good at tano jumps and that's her distinctive move, she should go right ahead and do them. If she limits what she's good at doing or known for, what makes her special/distinctive compared to other skaters?

I don't have that much love about that position, but I fully agree with you. Especially the parts in bold.
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
I is my understanding that part of what gives things like the Tano/Rippon arms more value, is the "unexpected or original" aspect of score, not just the difficulty. If you are doing it on all/almost all your jumps, it is not unexpected/original, it is just your style. I think the point was to encourage variety, which is a good thing. That's fine if you want to jump like that in my opinion, but it should not be given extra credit each time, if anything the strategy of which you don't use should be more closely examined. A program where the skater tells a story of someone on climbing up and then falling down could be interesting to have arms up while on an up tick and down for the crash later for instance.

I don't like the idea of telling a skater they can't do it. But I see no reason why it could not be similar to spins in that once you use it as an element, you don't get credit for it in other elements. The argument could also be made that if you do it are most of your jumps, you are almost demonstrating it as not being a more difficult element for you.

Honestly on this one the lack of Rippons kinda annoys me the most. Look, you want to get points for variations, can you at least do one jump with another variation? Replace just one of each programs Tanos with Rippons, and you can start to argue it having some variety. Three different arm positions in the short alone would be a somewhat neat aspect. I like seeing it added in more ways, but the only Tano on almost every jump seems lazy to me. Maybe if truly all her jumps were Tano it would be one thing.
 

sunnybear

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Well, think about it this way. The fact that Medvedeva jumped all Tano jumps is precisely what makes her program unexpected and original because no one else does it this way. Most people do the tano maybe once or twice, I’ve never seen anyone do it as frequently as Medvedeva in one program. So technically, she is being creative and unexpected. ;)

As essence_of_soy said, if that's a Medvedeva thing, why not?
 

hippomoomin

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
I totally agree. Hand(s) above head, hand(s) not above the head, is there any other alternative when a skater jumps?
I simply admire skaters who can do technically more difficult stuff. If you think tano jumps are distracting, excessive, how about Julia's flex position in her spins and other elements? Not all of them are pretty, and she does so to garner maximum points as other skaters. Should we call Julia's flex positions distracting and excessive?

Side note: I don't think Evgenia's jumps are tiny, at least not in height. It is exactly the good height of her jumps make them secure. Her 2A is much better than Julia's; she does not have those ugly knee bend of Serafima's.

Tano jumps are rewarded more GOE because they are technically more difficult. Whoever decided that tano jumps are meant to be done sparingly to add "contrast"? GOE is part of the TES score after all.

And what's wrong with doing whatever you can to score higher points? That is the point of a "competition". How is doing all tano jumps "limiting creativity"? If this is so, isn't doing all non-tano-jumps the same? Just because you don't like the look of a tano jump doesn't mean it's not "creative". Personally, I love the look of a tano jump - it looks so graceful and vibrant and flowing as compared to a normal jump where the skater scrunches their whole body together like they're bracing for impact. I don't see any reason for limiting the number of such lovely jumps, and if ISU doesn't as well, that's fine.

Define "gimmicky". A "gimmick" is a device used to trick someone. Getting higher GOE by doing something you're good at many times isn't a "trick" or a "deception". It's a legit way of showcasing your talent in that area. If Evgenia is good at tano jumps and that's her distinctive move, she should go right ahead and do them. If she limits what she's good at doing or known for, what makes her special/distinctive compared to other skaters?
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Should we call Julia's flex positions distracting and excessive?

You clearly don't keep yourself updated on this (good for you, by the way. ;) ).
There are many people who does call her flex position both distracting, excessive and "gimmick" (usually their favorite term to use). :laugh:
 

StitchMonkey

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Well, think about it this way. The fact that Medvedeva jumped all Tano jumps is precisely what makes her program unexpected and original because no one else does it this way. Most people do the tano maybe once or twice, I’ve never seen anyone do it as frequently as Medvedeva in one program. So technically, she is being creative and unexpected. ;)

As essence_of_soy said, if that's a Medvedeva thing, why not?

If it is "her thing" then it seems we are looking more at the program as a whole, and the arms should perhaps in this case be reflected in the PCS rather than GOE. I am not saying she should be limited, or told not, or penalized for the arms, just I am not sure I like a GOE on each jump. Give it to the one that uses it the best, or the one that uses it the best you have not already given max to seems fair. Heck, even the best single jump and the best change of position in a combo even.

If she wants to do them, fine, if she thinks it makes a better program, go for it. I just think that with that many arms, she should be doing it indeed because it is "her thing" not for the extra points. Something that is "her thing" is something you do or try to do regardless of benefit.

I guess I just don't want it to become almost the norm/expected for points. I don't want skaters to feel like they have to learn and do this.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
While it's a bit overkill, I don't find anything particularly wrong with it. If anything, it sets her jumps apart from all the other skaters. It's like saying "Look, I can actually tano almost every jump because I can... that's how solid my jumps are."

Also, Evgenia's 'tano is quite lovely IMO and enhances the look of the jump and doesn't just appear to be a GOE garnerer. She also has quite a few transitions. The counter into her 3L+2T+2T is particularly impressive and difficult.

If Shizuka can get away with FOUR donut spins in her Olympics winning LP, I think Evgenia can get away with a few 'tanos. :laugh:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
I think it's funny and I kind of like it...it is a litttle like taunting CoP in a way. To me the most important thing is she looks like she is having fun doing it. I was sure the robot moves were going to have people up in arms and not the Tano honestly but if we decide to ban her Tano's or at least tame them can she please keep the robot movements free from objection?
 

Crystallize

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
I think what Medvedeva did was quite special. This reminds me of some of the criticism Tuktamisheva has gotten for how she uses her arms, which I like, too. Maybe it is annoying for some, but it makes them stand out IMO. Tanos could be Medvedeva's thing. Skaters can't please everyone.
 

sunnybear

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
If it is "her thing" then it seems we are looking more at the program as a whole, and the arms should perhaps in this case be reflected in the PCS rather than GOE. I am not saying she should be limited, or told not, or penalized for the arms, just I am not sure I like a GOE on each jump. Give it to the one that uses it the best, or the one that uses it the best you have not already given max to seems fair. Heck, even the best single jump and the best change of position in a combo even.

If she wants to do them, fine, if she thinks it makes a better program, go for it. I just think that with that many arms, she should be doing it indeed because it is "her thing" not for the extra points. Something that is "her thing" is something you do or try to do regardless of benefit.

I guess I just don't want it to become almost the norm/expected for points. I don't want skaters to feel like they have to learn and do this.

A tano jump's value is not just aesthetic, it is also technically more difficult. That’s why it’s rewarded more GOE. If you can do a Tano for all your jumps, you should rightfully be rewarded. Your point is that Tano jumps should be given more/less GOE based on the uniqueness of the jump’s execution compared to the other jumps.
However, I'm of the opinion that GOE should be awarded because that particular jump was executed well or if the entry/execution was technically difficult and it should be independent of the other jumps in the program.

Whether or not it affects the beauty or uniqueness of the program should be reflected in PCS not GOE. If the judges hate the excessive use of the Tano then by all means, they can reflect it in her PCS. But she should still be given +GOE for the jumps because they have technical difficulty.

Why is doing something for points such a bad thing. It’s a sports competition. People want to maximise their chances of winning.
 
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