Age and (big) jumps

supsu · Aug 28, 2014

Hey,
I was wondering about when do skaters get their quads and 3a's ready to try in competition. Also girls with their triples and so on. Does it have an effect on for example ur consistency? Is it so simple that the earlier u master a jump the more secure and better it will be? I doubt it, but say I remember reading that Patrick as an example didn't get his 3a very early and we know much issues he's had with it.

Then of course u can lose ur jumps too (especially with girls).. but is it better to have triples or 3-3 combos already before possible puberty issues or get them later...? It seems most countries have the idea that jumps first and then the packaging or artistry comes later. Which makes sense. But then for example i remember hearing an interview with some Finnish skating person (during the olympics) say that they approach jumps with more patience and want to develop the whole package from early on. And when i watched jgp and the Finnish girl (14yo), she had a beautiful 2a but hardly any triples... I think it's a bit worrisome... or what do u guys think? Overall on the matters age and jumps and all that.

Sorry if this isn't making any sense.. i don't seem to be able to form sentences at the moment....:scratch:

concorde · Aug 28, 2014

I was told by someone at USFS that Gracie Gold had all her existing jumps at age 14. I think that is probably correct - girls need all their jumps by the time they reach puberty. Girls that get their jumps after that are probably the exception.

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 28, 2014

This girl was doing them at 11yrs old in competitions!!! It's my understanding that she learned them all about half a year leading up to that season :bow:

http://youtu.be/TtBy-GpdUCQ

I don't think it's necassary at such a young age....unless you're shooting for the moon.

Sandpiper · Aug 28, 2014

I think there's a delicate balance between getting the jumps early so that you can survive growth/make them second nature, versus being careful about injuries on a not-yet-developed body. I think girls probably need to get the jumps before puberty. Guys are a bit different--Patrick Chan didn't get his quad until 19-20-ish, but he picked it up fairly quickly and is decently consistent on it. It's actually the other jumps, especially the triple axel, that gives him problems. I think it's good to start the jumps early, but also to avoid overtraining which leads to injuries/shorter careers.

papa · Aug 28, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
This girl was doing them at 11yrs old in competitions!!! It's my understanding that she learned them all about half a year leading up to that season

http://youtu.be/TtBy-GpdUCQ

I don't think it's necassary at such a young age....unless you're shooting for the moon.

Good Lord, I'm a big fan(atic), but even I forget how great Yulia was at an early age. Genius girl.
Thank you for refreshing my memory Sam. :agree:

AsadaFanBoy · Aug 28, 2014

I'm concerned about the intense training on their bodies at such a young age. It's probably easier training wise to learn all the big tricks while young. But that's a lot of stress to put on a body. I know so many people in their mid 20's that have injuries from high school sports (mostly knee and hip issues) and this is mostly recreational sport. None of them were good enough to consider athletics as a possible scholarship opportunity.

I feel like a triple triple can be learned later...Ashley Wagner started putting it in later. Kristi Yamaguchi also put it in during her Olympic season, prior to which she had not executed a triple triple in competition. Wagner's may not be fully rotated...but Kristi's triple triple was if you look back at when she did them. I suspect it has to do with natural builds. Kristi's 1992 build looks sort of like Kim Yuna's 2010.

Sorry for ranty.

noskates · Aug 28, 2014

I don't know facts about the women but I remember hearing about Kurt Browning and how messed up his back was from doing triple axels and trying the quads. They talked about the pounds of pressure placed on the body in landing one of those jumps and the toll it takes.

supsu · Aug 29, 2014

OMG she's amazing..! She reminds of someone from this season... :laugh:

Sam-Skwantch said:
This girl was doing them at 11yrs old in competitions!!! It's my understanding that she learned them all about half a year leading up to that season

http://youtu.be/TtBy-GpdUCQ

I don't think it's necassary at such a young age....unless you're shooting for the moon.

starlight97 · Aug 29, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
This girl was doing them at 11yrs old in competitions!!! It's my understanding that she learned them all about half a year leading up to that season

http://youtu.be/TtBy-GpdUCQ

I don't think it's necassary at such a young age....unless you're shooting for the moon.

There was Sochi2014 written on the boards... if they had known back then. Such a beautiful story!

MANY people here worry about injuries that will occur later because of the work they put on their body so early. Best example is Liza Tuktamysheva. Remember how she had the 3A and so on at such a young age? Now she's got a hurt disk(?) In her spine, sth is inflamed and sheshe's in pain because she did those hard jumps so early, was "reckless" when it came to landing save. She's not to blame because she was so young back then.

Meoima · Aug 29, 2014

starlight97 said:
There was Sochi2014 written on the boards... if they had known back then. Such a beautiful story!
MANY people here worry about injuries that will occur later because of the work they put on their body so early. Best example is Liza Tuktamysheva. Remember how she had the 3A and so on at such a young age? Now she's got a hurt disk(?) In her spine, sth is inflamed and sheshe's in pain because she did those hard jumps so early, was "reckless" when it came to landing save. She's not to blame because she was so young back then.

I wish Mishin had told her to stop at that time. Sigh...

LRK · Aug 29, 2014

Meoima said:
I wish Mishin had told her to stop at that time. Sigh...

Was that when she was with Mishin - or before?

seabm7 · Aug 29, 2014

LRK said:
Was that when she was with Mishin - or before?

I think she was with Mishin at the time.

I wish they do not start 3A's and quads too young. If I remember correctly, Nathan Chen had to refrain from 3A's for a while due to a leg injury. Then Joshua Farris' disastrous US championship in 2011. It started with a torn abductor muscle due to a fall on quad, and ended with a broken ankle by a mistaken 3A during his LP.

starlight97 · Aug 29, 2014

The problem is,of course, that the competition is merciless.
Let's say the USA would want to care about their skaters health more, so they started to teach some jumps later on.
What would happen now?
They wouldn't be able to medal anywhere anymore(exaggerated) because Russia would come up with all the girls that indeed ARE doing the jumps so early.
It's impossible that every country would agree on this you know? So no country at all will do it, cause they'd rob their skaters of medals. It's a tricky thing.

Oh and cause Yulia was brought up- I really worry about her spine. You know this extreme I-spin she does wont do much harm, she could rupture a tendon or overstretch sth but that would heal.
But many are really conscious about the overextended Bielman. Imagine in your head in which position her spine is in during that. And on top of that it has to take impact of landing on rock hard ice with some speed many many times. It could very well happen that at some point she gets way worse back problems than Liza..

jenaj · Aug 29, 2014

When did Yuna get her 3-3? She was amazingly consistent with that jump once she started doing it.

AsadaFanBoy · Aug 29, 2014

If I recall Yuna was pretty young. 15? But it was a 3T-3T. She didn't have great flow out of her jumps until she put on some more muscle. Whatever Yuna did it worked and she skated beautifully.

Except for spirals. Except for spirals.

AnnaTheMusician · Aug 29, 2014

supsu said:
But then for example i remember hearing an interview with some Finnish skating person (during the olympics) say that they approach jumps with more patience and want to develop the whole package from early on. And when i watched jgp and the Finnish girl (14yo), she had a beautiful 2a but hardly any triples... I think it's a bit worrisome... or what do u guys think? Overall on the matters age and jumps and all that.

I don't know about Finnish practising methods but what you write might be true. Finnish skateres learn jumps little older than average skaters, imo. Laura Lepistö learned her 3Lz when she was 18. Usually talented Finnish skaters are able to do all the triples in the age of 15-16. Some skaters never learn them. Juulia Turkkila has struggled with her triple jumps for years and so far she jumps only 3T and 3S. She has tried 3Lo many times in competitions but never made it as far as I know.

But there must be something good also in this system. Finnish girls hardly ever get "e":s in their lutzes and flips. That's probably because they don't rush learning those most difficult jumps. Wrong edges seem to be more like a rule than an exception during these days with young skaters.

Meoima · Aug 29, 2014

I wonder about the boys' age for big jumps. If they have done with growing, then quad at 15-16 is quite seasonable. But quad at earlier age, I am not sure that could be good for their body. Especially if they are still growing, putting on more quads on their bodies doesn't sound alright.

Skater Boy · Sep 2, 2014

AnnaTheMusician said:
I don't know about Finnish practising methods but what you write might be true. Finnish skateres learn jumps little older than average skaters, imo. Laura Lepistö learned her 3Lz when she was 18. Usually talented Finnish skaters are able to do all the triples in the age of 15-16. Some skaters never learn them. Juulia Turkkila has struggled with her triple jumps for years and so far she jumps only 3T and 3S. She has tried 3Lo many times in competitions but never made it as far as I know.

But there must be something good also in this system. Finnish girls hardly ever get "e":s in their lutzes and flips. That's probably because they don't rush learning those most difficult jumps. Wrong edges seem to be more like a rule than an exception during these days with young skaters.[/QUOTE

Not to be rude or negative, but how many Finnish skaters TRULY have all their triples? I don't think any of the ones in the last decade wouldl be deemed to have all their triples including Lepisto. In fact the WBM was a bit or a lot of luck - there were several girls who could have won the bronze that year and it was hardly on overwhelming skating and jumps.

AnnaTheMusician · Sep 2, 2014

Skater Boy said:
Not to be rude or negative, but how many Finnish skaters TRULY have all their triples? I don't think any of the ones in the last decade wouldl be deemed to have all their triples including Lepisto. In fact the WBM was a bit or a lot of luck - there were several girls who could have won the bronze that year and it was hardly on overwhelming skating and jumps.

Kiira has, Susanna Pöykiö had, Jenni Vähämaa had. Laura didn't have, she didn't jump flip at all and her lutz was quite uncertain. I agree with you with the medal, she had luck and good SP behind. Our new senior skaters Jenni Saarinen and Liubov Efimenko have all the triples.

supsu · Sep 2, 2014

AnnaTheMusician said:
I don't know about Finnish practising methods but what you write might be true. Finnish skateres learn jumps little older than average skaters, imo. Laura Lepistö learned her 3Lz when she was 18. Usually talented Finnish skaters are able to do all the triples in the age of 15-16. Some skaters never learn them. Juulia Turkkila has struggled with her triple jumps for years and so far she jumps only 3T and 3S. She has tried 3Lo many times in competitions but never made it as far as I know.

But there must be something good also in this system. Finnish girls hardly ever get "e":s in their lutzes and flips. That's probably because they don't rush learning those most difficult jumps. Wrong edges seem to be more like a rule than an exception during these days with young skaters.

Yes, poor Juulia..

But on the other hand something is wrong with the system too since the few top skaters are always injured. And when they say that jumps early might cause this then.... it's the opposite with Finnish girls.

Age and (big) jumps

supsu

concorde

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Sandpiper

papa

Match Penalty

AsadaFanBoy

noskates

supsu

starlight97

Meoima

Match Penalty

LRK

seabm7

starlight97

jenaj

AsadaFanBoy

AnnaTheMusician

Meoima

Match Penalty

Skater Boy

AnnaTheMusician

supsu

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