Pot/Kettle simile racist???

Pot/Kettel simile racist???

Surely the origins of 'black' as connotating a negative image has to do with the universal fear of the dark.Look at similar metaphores:"This budget situation doesn't make sense.Could you shine some light on it?"

All I was saying is... would it cause this discussion, and would she have even screamed racism?? I think not. There's always going to be a problem with black and white... just like Isreal and Palestine will never agree who owns the "holy land"... it's just something that won't happen because 1. people are different and 2 well call me religious but we've all got that sin nature so people are just born mean LOL

I don't believe that Ereka meant '...calling the kettle black' as a racial epithet. It was more a long the lines of 'It takes one to know one'.

While it's original connotations may have been derives from a reference from pre-American civil war, it's really become part of the American language.

Unfortunately, in the days of political correctness, people can err in the extreme of looking of the negative.

I've been asked if I have a problem with being categorized as Oriental. I said 'No'. If you ask me if I would rather be called Asian or Oriental, I prefer Asian. The reason is that 'Orient' is something that European's made up. Chinese people are from the Asian continent. My 1st choice is American and you can tack on 'of Asian descent'.

Piel said:

Black and left both seem to fall in that category. the left eye is even called oculus sinister in Latin.

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Yes - because sinister in Latin means "left". It's only later that sinister came to mean "bad, evil" etc. But your point about left = evil stands!

kateri.

You know what I am getting really really tired of everyone second guessing the meaning of things that I say and telling me that I am being racist and shouldn't use certain words or phrases or that things I do are offensive to people.
If I go to a foreign country I would be expected to follow their traditions, for example when I visited Egypt this year on a diving trip, it was frowned upon for women to be wearing bikinis or skimpy clothes so I made an effort to cover up and to not be out in the town without my boyfriend or to be seen drinking alcohol anywhere other than the local British run pub. It was no problem for me and it was no more than I expected. This is what these people believe and while I may not necessarily agree with it, it was no skin off my nose to keep my opinions to myself and go along with their customs, it is their country and way of life after all.
Maybe I am expecting a bit much, but I do expect that to go both ways.
I am an Irish Catholic and this Christmas I couldn't get a religious advent calander for my young sister - all I could get were Barbie, Sindy, Britney etc. The reason for this was that it may offend the ethnic minorites in this country. Now as far as I am concerned that is racism towards Catholics.
This week in Britain the police force are talking about introducing positive discrimination in order to attain their numbers of ethnic minorities working in the Met. Give me a break, whether or not you get a job should have absolutely nothing to do with what colour, race or religion you are. If you can do the job then I don't care if you are purple with pink polka dots and have six heads!! When I go to a hospital the very least I expect is a doctor who can speak the language and tell me what is wrong with me, and be able to trust that they have a basic grasp of maths so I can be sure I will not be given prescriptions with lethal doses of medication. That goes for everyone, not just foreign people, the number of times I have been in the lab and had someone say to me 'there is no 1% saline' and when I say well make it up from stock they look blank or downright scared because they have no idea how to make up a 1% solution of anything. Or come to me and say my bacteria died and when I explain it was because the medium used to grow it on was too concentrated or not concetrated enough the look of wonder and statements of Oooooh that's what you mean by 10ppm is amazing and downright disheartening - and these are British college graduates! Or come to me and say my bacteria died and when I explain it was because the medium used to grow it on was too concentrated or not concetrated enough the look of wonder and statements of Oooooh that's what you mean by 10ppm is amazing and downright disheartening.
In Britain at least, a high percentage of asylum seekers and immigrants are fully qualified doctors, teachers, lawyers etc in their own country and genuinely do want to work when they get here but the red tape prevents them from doing so and I feel desperately sorry for these people. Surely the money that is given to them in the form of benefits, interpreters etc would be better spent getting them into classes to learn the language of their chosen country in order to allow them to work there in whatever field they are qualified in.

This at least has turned into an enlightening discussion. Thanks, Mathman, for looking up the origins of the phrase. Piel, BronzeisGolden, Heyyang, DiverChick, and others all make excellent points as well.

But I do have to correct Mathman on one thing. He correctly quoted me as saying:

Rgril writes: "As for the pot calling the kettle black, I think it's not just black, although it is true that black is generally associated with negativity. "The grass calling the trees green" is not just about green, it's also about things we generally find beautiful. Pots and kettles, at the time the phrase was developed, were basic dumpy household items. Today we could say, "That's like the pot calling the kettle Teflon" or "stainless steel" but no other combination has the alliteration, assonance, and glottal stops that "Pot calling the kettle black" has."

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Mathman then says:

I am willing to be wrong, but I bet I'm not. I don't think the negativity associated with "dumpy household items" has anything to do with the origin of the phrase.

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If you'll reread what I said, it was "it is true that black is associated with negativity." I never said or implied that negativity was associated with "dumpy household items" although I probably should have said "common household items." For the record, I do not now nor have I have thought negativity was associated with "household items," dumpy, common, or whatever. Except maybe ashtrays. Remember the phrase "Kissing a smoker is like licking an ashtray"? And I admit, I am prejudiced against vacuum cleaners, especially those with lousy suction. So yes, I could be accused of being vacuum-cleanerist.

Seriously, MM is right when he says there are many phrases that were originally aimed at an ethnic group considered of lower status at the time. But to me, many are part of the world's folklore and cultural history. I'm all for putting obvious racial epithets out of service, but it's very difficult to know with some of them because many groups take a negative and turn it into a positive within their own groups. Many blacks greet each other with, "Hey, n****r!" and sincerely mean it as a positive greeting. A white person cannot do that, unless they are close friends with a black person and between them they've decided it's okay. Same goes for many gay men greeting each other with, "Hey, f****t!" With some of my gay friends, I use it to greet them, just as they greet me with, "Hey, ho!"

Language is tricky, to say the least. I think the truly racist or otherwise insulting epithets towards any group find their way out of the general language, but there will always be hateful people who use them. Hard to put the genie back in the bottle. Fascinating discussion, but I think these phrases will be subject to social and cultural Darwinism and there ain't much we can do about it. (Is "ain't" an epithet?).
Rgirl

Rgirl, well, to tell the truth, I never really thought about this old saw one way or another until it came up on this thread. Omarosa is nuts, so that part didn't bother me. (At least, so she was portrayed on this "reality" show. We never know what's really real.) Quite true that epithets are usually rejected by society, sanitized by familiarity or co-opted by their intended victims. In any case, we as a society of many races have much bigger fish to fry (in our cast iron frying pans) that worrying about pots and kettles.

And yet, now that the subject has been raised, it still remains true that the premise of this aphorism is that calling a person black is an insult -- perhaps THE insult.

Tonichelle said:

1. people are different and 2 well call me religious but we've all got that sin nature so people are just born mean LOL

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People are certainly different but I hope that we will eventually come to see that differences in race are not worth fighting over.

About point 2, I recently read a scientific study that supports your claim about human nature. Evidently there are two contending theories about babies and their upbringing.

(a) Babies are born pure and innocent, and they learn to be mean, wicked and nasty by exposure to the mean, wicked and nasty world about them.

(b) Babies are born mean, wicked and nasty, but they (some of them, anyway) learn to go along with the behavioral expectations of society in order to survive.

This research project determined that (b) is correct. They tested children of all ages to see at what age they were most aggressive, violent and anti-social. The researchers expected that the hormone-driven teenage years would be the winner.

But no: two-year-olds are the worst. (I can hear everyone who has raised pre-school children going, "duh!", LOL) Fortunately at two they are not sufficiently developed physically that they can actually kill anyone, and by the time that they are sufficiently developed (age three), they are starting to calm down a little.

Mathman

PS. OK, this is off topic, but about the "reality" of reality shows: Do you believe that someone just happened to come in and buy an expensive painting just at closing time, when the Apprentice kids had been trying all day to sell anything at all? Or that someone just happened to come in at 15 minutes to five to plop down $40,000 to rent the Trump loft and let Bill's team snatch victory from the jaws of defeat?

Or were these so-called customers sent in by The Donald to save the show for that week?

(signed) The Mathman

About point 2, I recently read a scientific study that supports your claim about human nature. Evidently there are two contending theories about babies and their upbringing.About point 2, I recently read a scientific study that supports your claim about human nature. Evidently there are two contending theories about babies and their upbringing. b) Babies are born mean, wicked and nasty, but they (some of them, anyway) learn to go along with the behavioral expectations of society in order to survive.

This research project determined that (b) is correct. They tested children of all ages to see at what age they were most aggressive, violent and anti-social. The researchers expected that the hormone-driven teenage years would be the winner.

But no: two-year-olds are the worst. (I can hear everyone who has raised pre-school children going, "duh!", LOL) Fortunately at two they are not sufficiently developed physically that they can actually kill anyone, and by the time that they are sufficiently developed (age three), they are starting to calm down a little.
b) Babies are born mean, wicked and nasty, but they (some of them, anyway) learn to go along with the behavioral expectations of society in order to survive.

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I could not disagree with this study more. Though I am interested in learning how they managed to scientifically measure ''meaness.'' I don't think young kids are capable of forming the intent to do harm. They also do not have the maturity required for a high level of impulse control, especially when tired. This study sounds like it blames children for being immature. That's hardly reasonable. Even in a court of law, a person has to have the intent to commit a crime and the ability to resist the act before being found guilty.

Also as a Mom, I have to say for ulcer causing, nightmare inducing stress, a herd of 2 yr olds on a sugar high can't match 1 teenager.

Uughhh! Don't even get me started on these reality shows....even though I am sometimes helplessly sucked into them! Explain that...I know they are inane and mostly false, and they generally promote back-stabbing and poor morals...but sometimes I just can't turn away. It is like the most horrific train wreck you can imagine!

I watched one called "The Swan" last week. Has anyone else seen it? They take these normal women that just happen to be super frumpy and without make-up in every pre-show interview and picture and steal them away for a couple of months. They are required to lose 30 or more pounds and undergo a series of plastic surgeries. Okay....anything that makes someone exercise is a good thing. But I don't support the whole "losing weight is not enough, you'd still be ugly....we must surgically alter your appearance to make you beautiful" aspect. It just seems so wrong to me!

Also, something Heyang said made me think of an experience I had last week. In one of my many education classes there is a pretty, young white girl that is just full of surprises and strange questions. She was talking about one of her field experiences in a local urban school in front of the class and kept referring to all of the children as "colored" kids. One of my best friends (who happens to be "colored" ) sits beside me and she couldn't stop laughing! The girl came up to us after class to talk and we both tried to explain to her that "colored" was a horrible term and only evoked images of separate drinking fountains, etc. She was mystified. But, this is the same girl that constantly kept verbally assaulting our poor Jewish professor with random questions and statements about "The Passion of the Christ" during an EDUCATION class. Oh, what it must be like to live in a bubble!

P.S. Most of my black friends prefer to be called black. They don't particularly like the term African American all that much. I actually had a big discussion with a group of my friends about this after the "colored" incident in my education class. But, this is just one group of people. I'm sure other people might prefer another term.

As to "Black" and "Racism". Associating dark colors with evil must be very deep in the consiousness of white people. In Russian, there is an expression "to have a black soul" (obvious meaning); I wold argue it has nothing to do with racism, as people who came up with it almost certainly never saw a person of color.

As to the whole "err on the side of caution thing"... This reminds me of Philips Roth's Human Stain, where a professor uses a word "spook" to refer to students who are listed on the class roster, but never attend class. When it is revealed that the students are black (which the professor did not even know), he was asked to appologize; when he refused, he was forced to leave the university. The irony in Human Stain is that the said professor is actuallly a black man who spent most of his life pretending to be a white Jew.

I believe ''living in a bubble'' is more common and more easily accomplished than most people imagine. I come from a long line of white, Eastern Ky hillbillys. I grew up with the conviction that racism was wrong. It was an evil that should not be tolerated. However, it wasn't something that I experienced. I didn't see it in my day to day life. Maybe, I just didn't look or notice because I had never experienced the pain of it. It was a concept.

Things continued like that until I married a wonderful Mexican-American man. Let's just say, the veil was ripped from my eyes. The comments came from the most unexpected sources. When people, I had thought of as friends, called to ask what color my baby was- it hurt. When my kids come home from school after being called ''Dirty Mexicans'' or told to ''Go back where you came from'' I am enraged.

What I am trying to say is that racism has always been around in my world. Even though it was something I hated, I didn't see it until it was aimed my way. I don't believe I was unusual. Ignorance, not just hate, is a big part of the problem.

BronzeisGolden said:

Also, something Heyang said made me think of an experience I had last week. In one of my many education classes there is a pretty, young white girl that is just full of surprises and strange questions. She was talking about one of her field experiences in a local urban school in front of the class and kept referring to all of the children as "colored" kids. One of my best friends (who happens to be "colored" ) sits beside me and she couldn't stop laughing! The girl came up to us after class to talk and we both tried to explain to her that "colored" was a horrible term and only evoked images of separate drinking fountains, etc. She was mystified. But, this is the same girl that constantly kept verbally assaulting our poor Jewish professor with random questions and statements about "The Passion of the Christ" during an EDUCATION class. Oh, what it must be like to live in a bubble!

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I should probably not even get into my feelings on the Passion of the Christ and the whole "Jew Hater" message is so *obviously* has (note the sarcasim)

but I do have to say that there are a lot of us that are not in an area where we really see the racism... here in Kenai, Alaska we have very few black/African American/whatever the politically correct term is for this week so we don't keep up with what we're supposed to call each other... white people are caucasian on forms... but white is white and we're not to take offense... however for black people it's colored/African American/black/and half a dozen other terms in history that we're supposed to keep track of... some of my classmates were black and they even had trouble putting the "right" term on themselves. And while they can have that problem, as a white person I better know just incase I ever do leave Kenai and go somewhere where being politically correct IS a big deal... so there are some of us who have no earthly clue what to use...

like Mexican-Americans... I am guessing that's the right "term" to use? I really don't know... personally they're all people so why do I even have to worry about how to describle them... that'd be like me having to say I'm German-Irish-American.... like I really want to type that out on forms that ask what my race is


so just like we podunk kids have to be understanding of this whole aspect... those of you who live in the "Black and White" world need to understand we don't all have the "benefit" (?) of going through all of this...

ToniChelle,

My post had nothing to do with the popular claim that "The Passion of the Christ" is anti-semitic. I've seen it and don't believe that it is. But, I was just using that as an example of how clueless this girl was. My professor had already told her once that he had no interest in seeing it. But, she kept on and on at him. There we were discussing school financing, etc....and this girl wants to ask him why he won't see the movie, wh he doesn't want to, etc. That is wrong. First of all, it wasn't the time or place for such a discussion. Second of all, just because she was monumentally moved by the film doesn't mean everyone else has to be. I was, but that is beside the point. He didn't want to discuss it. She couldn't leave it alone. That is intrusive, insensitive and annoying.

And, I didn't claim to be any great expert on all these issues of race either. But, when discussing certain subjects in school or particular issues that include racial statistics, info, etc, it is good to know the most accepted terms. I don't want to offend anyone. So, I ask. LOL! And I was going to say that I was probably more of a country bumpkin than you (being in TN), but Alaska has me beat I'm affraid! My two cousins grew up in North Pole, Alaska. Is that anywhere close to you?

Susanbeth,

I hate to hear that your children had to go through that. Children can be so cruel, but adults can be even worse.

Tonichelle said:

so just like we podunk kids have to be understanding of this whole aspect... those of you who live in the "Black and White" world need to understand we don't all have the "benefit" (?) of going through all of this...

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Well, in a way I'm jealous that you don't have to watch what you say! I live in Central FL, which is obviously a major tourist spot, & we also have people who move here from all over the world. & it's definitely not just a "black & white world" where you have to watch what you say! There are more proper terms & don't say terms than one person should have to remember, & quite frankly I think it's ridiculous! I wish people would just always base things on actions & not appearances! It really is childish to make assumptions based on looks, or give someone special/worse treatment because they are a minority (& depending on the situation, even a white person can be the "minority"). & even whites can be discriminated against or made fun of in the U.S.. It's too bad we can't live in a perfect world where no one is discriminated against, or tries to use the "racist" card to get around not being qualified for college, a job, ect...

But for anyone who doesn't live in the "muti-colored" world, here are a few don'ts if you visit FL:
Don't use Mexican American unless you know for sure a person is of Mexican descent! If you don't know for sure what country a Spanish speaking individual is from, just use the term Hispanic (Not Spanish) or Latino. People from Puerto Rico consider it an insult to me called Mexican, as does anyone from Central or South America.
Don't use Indian to describe a Native American. This is just because it's too confusing due to the fact that people from India are also described as Indian.
Don't assume that a person is Muslim or an Arab just be cause they "look" like it. Just go w/, from the Middle East.
People from Asia typically prefer being called Asian, & not Oriental.

There's more, but I'm stopping. Basically it's best to just use a person's name; & only discuss their culture if you are their friend.

Reading this back just makes me sad we have to worry about this stuff at all, & that innocent sayings can spark controversy...

I do try to avoid describing people by race/color/ethnicity. While they are components of the person's life experience, they are not the only factors. Personally, I have much more in common with people born in the US of any culture than people who are born and raised in China. Yet, most people in the US think the opposite.

Because I have a Chinese last name, the phone company calls and asks if I want to sign up for an International Calling Plan. The part that offends me is that it's usually a person who can only speak Mandarin Chinese. Well, my family speaks Tao-San which is similar to Cantonese and I can only count from 1 to 10 in Chinese. When I explain that no one speaks Chinese, I usually get a hang up since the person cannot speak English. There was one incidence out of about 20 where the person on the phone could speak multiple Chinese dialects and English. BTW, if anyone looked at my phone bill for the last 20 years, they could see that there are no calls to Asia. I've called London and Paris more times.

Another time, I was speaking with a headhunter on the phone. He cold called me. At the end of our conversation, he says 'for someone Chinese, you speak English very well.' My response 'I would hope so since I was born and raised in the United States.'

Being a 'minority' can be a double-edged sword. While I do not want to be hired only because I am a female of Asian descent, I do not appreciate the assumption that I must not be US born. I also experience the opposite from Chinese people who assume that I must speak Chinese - my attitude towards that is that they should learn English since they will be living here - just as I would learn to speak Chinese if I were going to live in China.

Anyway, I think it's important to not assume anything based upon a person's appearance.

Tonichelle said:

here in Kenai, Alaska we have very few black/African American/whatever the politically correct term is for this week so we don't keep up with what we're supposed to call each other... white people are caucasian on forms... but white is white and we're not to take offense... however for black people it's colored/African American/black/and half a dozen other terms in history that we're supposed to keep track of... some of my classmates were black and they even had trouble putting the "right" term on themselves. And while they can have that problem, as a white person I better know just incase I ever do leave Kenai and go somewhere where being politically correct IS a big deal... so there are some of us who have no earthly clue what to use...

like Mexican-Americans... I am guessing that's the right "term" to use? I really don't know... personally they're all people so why do I even have to worry about how to describle them... that'd be like me having to say I'm German-Irish-American.... like I really want to type that out on forms that ask what my race is


so just like we podunk kids have to be understanding of this whole aspect... those of you who live in the "Black and White" world need to understand we don't all have the "benefit" (?) of going through all of this...

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I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but only slightly. I teach at a 99% white school in Nebraska, and I do NOT let my kids get away with this kind of insensitive talk. You act as if terms change every day. They do not. At some point, you, and my students, are going to have to interact with minorities. Understand that many people who are "minorities" have been treated badly by white people at some point, where as we, who are white, have NO idea what it's like. Be understanding, be sensitive, and when you know someone of a different ethnicity well enough, ask questions about his or her experiences. It will be an eye opener.

I try to do like Heyang says and not describe people by their ethnicities. But if I must, African American, Native American, Hispanic, Asian and Middle Eastern work just fine. It's not like there's a huge amount of terms you forced to "learn." Also, try not to refer to people of other races/religions/sexual orientation as "they" or "them." "They" are people too, and not some sort of strange species.

Peace.

Laura

PrincessLeppard said:

...Understand that many people who are "minorities" have been treated badly by white people at some point, where as we, who are white, have NO idea what it's like.
... But if I must, African American, Native American, Hispanic, Asian and Middle Eastern work just fine. It's not like there's a huge amount of terms you forced to "learn." Also, try not to refer to people of other races/religions/sexual orientation as "they" or "them." "They" are people too, and not some sort of strange species.

Peace.

Laura

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Wow, now even the terms they and them refer to something other than people?

For your information, racism goes both ways. When I was a working girl, I experienced it every day. And also, black people are not exclusively from Africa, no more than I am from Italy/Canada/Ireland.

Should we just stop talking altogether? Can't use colors, someone might get offended. Can't say they or them...
Let's just close down all avenues of communication so we don't "offend" anyone. :sheesh:

SusanBeth,

I'm sorry to hear about your children being treated like that. I grew up in Eastern KY myself. Do you still live there? I now live in the Midwest and I get teased relentlessly about being a so-called hillbilly, something I find offensive.

This has certainly turned into a very interesting discussion. One of the best. I was raised in Nebraska and the country kids were treated as if they were "hillbillies". And we thought the ones that lived in the sandhills were the hillbillies. (That's a joke.) I remember in high school a friend of mine asked why the country kids dressed so differently. Of course, after she said it she realized what she said and said "oh, not you, or course". I didn't have an answer for her but later on realized it was because we had no money and our clothes were made from flour sacks except for our underwear which was made from sugar sacks. I never saw a black person until I was at least five and was scared to death. I didn't even know they existed. But there was very distinct racism. My parents, especially my dad, was always anti-
"bohunk" and "pollock". My sister wanted to go with a "bohunk" but dad wouldn't allow it. He also rode bulls in the rodeo so that's another class too. Had she been able to go with him they probably would have married and she might have only married once instead of three times. Who Knows? I can understand the attitude of using they and them. Don't understand why someone has to take such an offense to it. After all, everytime we get used to calling another race a politically correct name they change it. When I was young, the only name I knew was negro or "nigger" and didn't have any idea there was anything wrong with it. Everytime they change it someone starts using it in a derisive way and they change it again and I think this will just keep happening.

I'm sorry to hear about your children being treated like that. I grew up in Eastern KY myself. Do you still live there? I now live in the Midwest and I get teased relentlessly about being a so-called hillbilly, something I find offensive

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SusanBeth and Lynn, living in WV I know what you mean, LOL. We get called that too, when actually we are Mountaineers. I believe that Tennesee is or at one time was the hillbilly state. The most recent insult to our state (besides the never ending jokes by the University of Virginia Pep Band)is that A&F was selling t-shirts with the outline of WV on them and a message that said
" West Virginia Where Everything is Relative" (or something close to that). Our Governor complained to A&F who basically ignored him and of course because of the publicity the t-shirts sold out. i don't know what A&F were thinking EVERYONE knows that marriage between close relatives is only allowed in Boone, Mingo, Lincoln, Logan, and McDowell counties.