State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

Tavi... · Dec 1, 2014

golden411 said:
What are you smoking? Since when does naming Max to the 2014 World team (instead of Jason) = jumping off the train?

Disagree with other things that others have said about Max as well.

When he was reigning national champ, he did receive good promotional support from USFS, IMO. He was sent to the two big USOC pre-Sochi media summits, for instance. Evan, Jeremy, and Ross were the only other men who were invited to one or both summits.

I would note also that Max was the only U.S. man -- other than Evan -- who attracted a big mainstream pre-Sochi sponsor.

Regarding social media followers:

Jason obviously is very popular -- four million YT hits do not lie.
But Max does not posts messages/photo/vids on Twitter and Instagram nearly as often as Jason, so it is somewhat apples and oranges to compare the numbers of their respective followers.
(Jeremy used to be quite the social media addict as well, although he has cut back since his heyday.)

And I do not agree that social media is part of the job description of an elite athlete.
Virtue/Moir's popularity in the real world was extremely high even though they chose to steer clear of social media. (They joined Twitter and Instagram only well after Sochi.)

My sense is that Max comes across to the public as a thoroughly likable human being -- as likable as Jason.
If Max captures another U.S. championship, I think he once again will be an effective ambassador for USFS. His personality and looks are very pleasing, and everyone loves a winner.

Well, if you're just talking about popularity within the existing fanbase, sure, if Max wins another US title, his popularity will undoubtedly increase. But I'm not convinced that his winning another title would draw new fans to the sport in and of itself, even though he's nice looking, intelligent, etc. Truthfully, I think Jason's love of people drives him to communicate with them via Twitter & otherwise, and it's that which so many people respond to, as much as or more than his talent.

As to VM, I don't think you can really use them as an example. For one, they won the Olympics in 2010, which is quite different than just winning nationals. Also, they're Canadian, & I think FS has more fans in CA than in the US. Finally, they may only have joined Twitter recently, but didn't the have a reality TV show last year?

Art&Sport · Dec 1, 2014

There will be a number of juniors debuting as seniors in the men's division at Nationals in January, including Nathan Chen and Jordan Moeller. They both have great programs this season. If you get Ice Network, you can check them out at Pacific Coast Sectionals, and Midwestern Sectionals respectively. I also heard there is a discount available for an IceNetwork season pass from December 1 - 7. You need a special code to get the discount.

Anyway, with more up-and-comers in the mix, U.S. Nationals men's event will be even more exciting and hard to predict. Nathan is working on quads (apparently not 100% mastered), but he has fast rotations. He also has a 3-axel, but has not been performing it since coming back from an injury. Jordan Moeller won his sectionals, but was a little shaky on landings of his 3-axels. Still, they both have wonderful, very engaging programs that if skated well should help them gain good scores for high placements.

Tavi... · Dec 1, 2014

Art&Sport said:
There will be a number of juniors debuting as seniors in the men's division at Nationals in January, including Nathan Chen and Jordan Moeller. They both have great programs this season. If you get Ice Network, you can check them out at Pacific Coast Sectionals, and Midwestern Sectionals respectively. I also heard there is a discount available for an IceNetwork season pass from December 1 - 7. You need a special code to get the discount.

Anyway, with more up-and-comers in the mix, U.S. Nationals men's event will be even more exciting and hard to predict. Nathan is working on quads (apparently not 100% mastered), but he has fast rotations. He also has a 3-axel, but has not been performing it since coming back from an injury. Jordan Moeller won his sectionals, but was a little shaky on landings of his 3-axels. Still, they both have wonderful, very engaging programs that if skated well should help them gain good scores for high placements.

I was at Mids and saw Jordan's free skate. I like him very much but IMO he is not yet ready to challenge for a medal.

noskates · Dec 2, 2014

I think Nathan will be great - someday. Right now he needs more maturity in his presentation in my opinion. He definitely has tight rotations and can do the jumps. I find his spins uninspiring.

centerpt1 · Dec 2, 2014

So, to sum up the whole thread: Not likely to see a US man top 3 at Worlds in 2015.

But there is potential past that.

skatedreamer · Dec 2, 2014

papagena said:
Twitter followers do not indicate who may have international success, but they do I ndicate who fans are presently connecting with. If USFS is "holding up" Jason - and I am not sure that they are - I think it would be because it would draw more fans to figure skating.

ETA I am not sure why you think Jason has a psychological block - he strikes me as extremely healthy mentally.

I think you're right; my guess is that "psychological" was more a reference to Jeremy than Jason. I've always liked Jeremy's skating and wish he could get past those demons of his...

Icey · Dec 2, 2014

If both abbott and brown do "safe" quadless programs at the same competition and both have few serious errors, Abbott comes out the winner imo.

Mrs. P · Dec 2, 2014

Icey said:
If both abbott and brown do "safe" quadless programs at the same competition and both have few serious errors, Abbott comes out the winner imo.

Actually it will be interesting to see what happens if that is the case.

Just looking strictly at TES, Jason is more likely to win out than Jeremy, at least in the short program.

Jason's highest TES in the SP is 45.98 from Trophee Eric Bompard last year. His other TES scores with clean SPs: 43.38 (Nebelhorn Trophy 2013), 44.85 (Skate America 2013), 43.50 (Nebelhorn Trophy 2014), 45.39 (Olympics)

Jeremy's TES for his two clean SPs at his his two GPS: 40.30 (Skate America) and 41.62 (NHK Trophy).And this is considering that Jeremy has a 3A (vs. a 3Z for Jason) in the second half.

Jason generally earns higher GOE (and levels at times) on spins and steps, which I think is the difference.

It's also worth noting that Jason beat Jeremy in TES in the free skate at Nationals last year despite the latter landing a quad. Jason's TES was 9 points higher despite a 3A< with -GOE. (Jeremy, however, wasn't perfect, he did pop a jump and also got a 3A< with -GOE)

Jeremy, however, is still getting higher PCS, so it might even out anyway.

Tavi... · Dec 2, 2014

Just to play devil 's advocate here, I am actually wondering why Max had never been trotted out as a new face of US figure skating. After all, if you're trying to grow the sport, a really obvious place to look for growth is in men. And if you get them as kids, you probably have a better chance of retaining them as adults.

So here we have Max, who is nice looking and seems like a nice, smart, personable, competitive guy. He has speed and big impressive jumps and has a backstory that would seem tailor made to grab the interest of little boys: He was a developmental hockey player. He fractured his back. He came back from that & chose figure skating, not hockey (Why? Too much chance of reinjury in hockey, or cause he liked it better?)

Anyway, you have this guy little boys could probably relate to and you have USFS launching a hockey program & you have Scott Hamilton's new joint program with the Predators. It makes me wonder why USFS isn't taking advantage of that & putting Max out there. Or maybe they are, and I just don't know?

Mrs. P · Dec 2, 2014

papagena said:
Just to play devil 's advocate here, I am actually wondering why Max had never been trotted out as a new face of US figure skating. After all, if you're trying to grow the sport, a really obvious place to look for growth is in men. And if you get them as kids, you probably have a better chance of retaining them as adults.

So here we have Max, who is nice looking and seems like a nice, smart, personable, competitive guy. He has speed and big impressive jumps and has a backstory that would seem tailor made to grab the interest of little boys: He was a developmental hockey player. He fractured his back. He came back from that & chose figure skating, not hockey (Why? Too much chance of reinjury in hockey, or cause he liked it better?)

Anyway, you have this guy little boys could probably relate to and you have USFS launching a hockey program & you have Scott Hamilton's new joint program with the Predators. It makes me wonder why USFS isn't taking advantage of that & putting Max out there. Or maybe they are, and I just don't know?

Not to mention the fact that a lot of other figure skaters and coaches are working with hockey players now.

I think the case with Max is an out-of-sight, out-of-mind type of situation. After he won Nationals and placed a respectable 7th at Worlds, he was all over the place. He got invited to all the pre-Olympic summits and got a whole bunch of sponsorships. FWIW, NBC did note his whole hockey player thing in his Grand Prix events. But then he didn't make the the Olympics and though he was at Worlds, with that being a post-Olympic Worlds, people were likely fatigued from the Olympics.

All that said, it is odd that no-one has explored the hockey angle.

karne · Dec 2, 2014

Mmm, I disagree with that. It seemed to me like during the season you couldn't go five seconds without hearing the "former-hockey-player-who-broke-his-back" spiel every time Max's name was mentioned. It makes him seem one-dimensional, even though there's a lot more to him than that.

I'd like to see, just for once, some promo of Max, and some commentary on Max, that DOESN'T mention the hockey thing. Because sheesh, guys, there's more to talk about than that.

I do agree that it's quite a cross-promotional opportunity, but I'd like to see it given a rest at some point.

StitchMonkey · Dec 2, 2014

papagena said:
Just to play devil 's advocate here, I am actually wondering why Max had never been trotted out as a new face of US figure skating. After all, if you're trying to grow the sport, a really obvious place to look for growth is in men. And if you get them as kids, you probably have a better chance of retaining them as adults.

So here we have Max, who is nice looking and seems like a nice, smart, personable, competitive guy. He has speed and big impressive jumps and has a backstory that would seem tailor made to grab the interest of little boys: He was a developmental hockey player. He fractured his back. He came back from that & chose figure skating, not hockey (Why? Too much chance of reinjury in hockey, or cause he liked it better?)

Anyway, you have this guy little boys could probably relate to and you have USFS launching a hockey program & you have Scott Hamilton's new joint program with the Predators. It makes me wonder why USFS isn't taking advantage of that & putting Max out there. Or maybe they are, and I just don't know?

FWIW he did do a reddit AMA last year, which could be seen as an attempt at promoting him in a more mainstream fashion. Or perhaps mainstream geek/nerd fashion but nothing wrong with that!

It did get more traction/attention than Johnny Weir's more recent AMA

karne · Dec 2, 2014

StitchMonkey said:
FWIW he did do a reddit AMA last year, which could be seen as an attempt at promoting him in a more mainstream fashion. Or perhaps mainstream geek/nerd fashion but nothing wrong with that!

It did get more traction/attention than Johnny Weir's more recent AMA

Probably because it was funnier!

Sandpiper · Dec 2, 2014

papagena said:
Twitter followers do not indicate who may have international success, but they do I ndicate who fans are presently connecting with. If USFS is "holding up" Jason - and I am not sure that they are - I think it would be because it would draw more fans to figure skating.

ETA I am not sure why you think Jason has a psychological block - he strikes me as extremely healthy mentally.

I was talking about Jeremy. Jason is the one with the technical block.

More fans flock to figure skating when your countrymen are winning medals. Which is a good reason to support those who are likely to succeed on the big stage. That being said, I don't think the USFS is really holding up Jason. The USFS didn't double Max's 4-3--he did that on his own. But if the USFS is holding up Jason, I sure hope it's not because of his number of Twitter followers. That would be really stupid.

noskates · Dec 2, 2014

I don't know how anyone can say Jason has a technical block. He AND his coach have made it clear that he's not putting a quad in his program until he can land it clean consistently. Their theory is that a clean program is better than a program with multiple sprat falls on attempted quads. Many of the other male skaters put that damnable jump in and can't skate clean anymore. Unfortunately those sprat falls get rewarded because of the rotations (which I don't agree with - a fall is a fall!) Whether Kori is right on this note or not - that's what they've decided!!! So whether she's right or she's stupid in going along with this thought process - it is what it is!!!!

IcyEdges · Dec 2, 2014

noskates said:
I don't know how anyone can say Jason has a technical block. He AND his coach have made it clear that he's not putting a quad in his program until he can land it clean consistently. Their theory is that a clean program is better than a program with multiple sprat falls on attempted quads. Many of the other male skaters put that damnable jump in and can't skate clean anymore. Unfortunately those sprat falls get rewarded because of the rotations (which I don't agree with - a fall is a fall!) Whether Kori is right on this note or not - that's what they've decided!!! So whether she's right or she's stupid in going along with this thought process - it is what it is!!!!

Because I don't get it either, but as far as most people are concerned here..."You're damned if you do with the quad and your damned if you don't."
Jeremy took it out to play it safe this past weekend and all he got was crap about it from couch coaches here lol!

Mathman · Dec 2, 2014

It would be OK for Jeremy to take out the quad. But then he has to do a Lysacek -- skate with verve and nail everything else.

StitchMonkey · Dec 2, 2014

IcyEdges said:
Because I don't get it either, but as far as most people are concerned here..."You're damned if you do with the quad and your damned if you don't."
Jeremy took it out to play it safe this past weekend and all he got was crap about it from couch coaches here lol!

A lot of skaters could try doing one quad, and not in combination and do great. Max Aaron could likely do much better in his short with a 4S and 3L+3T rather than gamble on the 4S+3T he keeps doubling. There is a middle ground between quad crazy and no quad.

As for Jeremy. There is a difference between taking out the quad and taking out enough TES to keep your base value sub 60. As for couch critics, his TES was lower (both base and final) at Skate America, so maybe it was still the right decision to make.

Tavi... · Dec 3, 2014

Mrs. P said:
Not to mention the fact that a lot of other figure skaters and coaches are working with hockey players now.

I think the case with Max is an out-of-sight, out-of-mind type of situation. After he won Nationals and placed a respectable 7th at Worlds, he was all over the place. He got invited to all the pre-Olympic summits and got a whole bunch of sponsorships. FWIW, NBC did note his whole hockey player thing in his Grand Prix events. But then he didn't make the the Olympics and though he was at Worlds, with that being a post-Olympic Worlds, people were likely fatigued from the Olympics.

All that said, it is odd that no-one has explored the hockey angle.

karne said:
Mmm, I disagree with that. It seemed to me like during the season you couldn't go five seconds without hearing the "former-hockey-player-who-broke-his-back" spiel every time Max's name was mentioned. It makes him seem one-dimensional, even though there's a lot more to him than that.

I'd like to see, just for once, some promo of Max, and some commentary on Max, that DOESN'T mention the hockey thing. Because sheesh, guys, there's more to talk about than that.

I do agree that it's quite a cross-promotional opportunity, but I'd like to see it given a rest at some point.

StitchMonkey said:
FWIW he did do a reddit AMA last year, which could be seen as an attempt at promoting him in a more mainstream fashion. Or perhaps mainstream geek/nerd fashion but nothing wrong with that!

It did get more traction/attention than Johnny Weir's more recent AMA

What I was thinking more of was not necessarily promoting him as a hockey player on nbc or sending him to industry events but doing more grass roots kind of stuff like going to rinks and schools and teaching / talking to / inspiring little boys (and little girls who like hockey, geez how sexist am I?). Seriously, like the events they were doing in between stars on ice. Or having him on kids tv show - how great would that be (they could do that one with Jason as well).

Maybe they do use him this way already and I just don't know. USFS seems not to do things that seem logical to me, like really reaching out to include adult skaters as opposed to parents & kids only.

Sandpiper · Dec 3, 2014

noskates said:
I don't know how anyone can say Jason has a technical block. He AND his coach have made it clear that he's not putting a quad in his program until he can land it clean consistently. Their theory is that a clean program is better than a program with multiple sprat falls on attempted quads. Many of the other male skaters put that damnable jump in and can't skate clean anymore. Unfortunately those sprat falls get rewarded because of the rotations (which I don't agree with - a fall is a fall!) Whether Kori is right on this note or not - that's what they've decided!!! So whether she's right or she's stupid in going along with this thought process - it is what it is!!!!

Jason is behind the top men of the world in tech, and it currently holds him back in international competitions. That's just a fact. Maybe "block" wasn't the best word choice, if you take it to mean he'll never get over it, though I certainly did not mean it like that.

I've defended Jason's decision to not include the quad, and I've railed against the (lack of) fall penalty many times. I fail to see how I became a splat-lover and Jason-hater just for pointing out he has technical handicaps.

State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

Tavi...

Art&Sport

Tavi...

noskates

centerpt1

skatedreamer

Icey

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Tavi...

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

StitchMonkey

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Sandpiper

noskates

IcyEdges

Match Penalty

Mathman

StitchMonkey

Tavi...

Sandpiper

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