State of the U.S. Men's Figure Skating for 2014-15

TMC said:

You got it.

LRK, I'm sorry that I wrote in a way that gave you the idea that I despise the quad. I certainly don't despise the quad, and I never meant to give that impression. I think there's a big gray area between despising it and thinking it is everything, and I stand pretty firmly in the middle - I can take it or leave it. Heck, Max is one of my favourites and that is largely because I admire his jumps and his speed.

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Well, the quad matters to me - a lot. I'm definitely pro-quad. And I'm a Plushy uber, and I was devastated at Vancouver, so...

I'm sure you did not mean to insult me personally, or anything. That's just it. I don't like labels. I just wanted you to think a little before you started dividing up people into camps along "Them" Versus "Us" lines. I've seen too much of that around. And if you make up categories based on - well, I hope you don't mind my saying - caricatures, you don't know just whom you may end up putting into that group. Groups are made up of individuals - and they may have a whole range of differentiated spectrums of opinions.

Also, I've never seen anyone - EVER -say that the quad is "everything" - or "all" that matters. If you do, point me to it, as I'd like to see that unicorn.

Also, talking of labels - Jason has "The Artist" label, which is actually the more fortunate to have, than the "Just a Jumper" one. "The Artist" will have good PCS - and he can always up his tech content. "Just the Jumper" however, is always going to have (relatively) low PCS - it won't matter much what he actually does on the ice.

No, I certainly didn't mean you personally.

I didn't mean to divide people - what "us" and "them" camps are we talking about? I'm guessing you mean something like "quad-lovers" and "quad-indifferents"? Correct me if I'm wrong. That was not my intention at all. If anything, I was talking about "people who are nasty about lack of quad" vs. "people who are not nasty about lack of quad".

I'm sure you were devastated after Vancouver, but I don't get the impression from you that you are a person who finds relief in bashing another skater online. But such people exist.

I certainly didn't mean by jump-obsessed fans ALL fans who consider quads important. Just the ones who consider them so crucial that when they see a skater do well without one, they feel entitled to say awful, venomous things about them.

I never bashed Evan - not even in private. In fact I stopped talking about his skating altogether - it really isn't my cup of tea, but I was afraid that what I said about it, might be out of malice, and I did not want that.

People can be nasty about a whole number of things. Not only quads. So again, the "jumpsessed" are the ones who are "nasty about quads"? And everyoby else is - "not nasty about quads"? Is that a constructive distinction to make? Sigh. Never mind, TCM. I've said my say, and there is no point in elaborating - or just repeating the same thing again and again. So, I'll leave you to it.

LRK said:

I never bashed Evan - not even in private. In fact I stopped talking about his skating altogether - it really isn't my cup of tea, but I was afraid that what I said about it, might be out of malice, and I did not want that.

People can be nasty about a whole number of things. Not only quads. So again, the "jumpsessed" are the ones who are "nasty about quads"? And everyoby else is - "not nasty about quads"? Is that a constructive distinction to make? Sigh. Never mind, TCM. I've said my say, and there is no point in elaborating - or just repeating the same thing again and again. So, I'll leave you to it.

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I think you two are talking over each other. You guys need to hug it out.

I think TMC's point, to sum it up that SOME fans are "jumpsessed" but not ALL fans and some of those "jumpssessed" fans tend to be nasty about quads.

Let me explain it in mathmatical terms.

All "jumpsessed" fans =/= always nasty about quad =/= YOU.

However, some "jumpssed" fans > nasty about quads (i.e. a SMALL minority)

I would draw a venn diagram but I don't have a means to do so.

Mrs. P said:

I think you two are talking over each other. You guys need to hug it out.

I think TMC's point, to sum it up that SOME fans are "jumpsessed" but not ALL fans and some of those "jumpssessed" fans tend to be nasty about quads.

Let me explain it in mathmatical terms.

All "jumpsessed" fans =/= always nasty about quad =/= YOU.

However, some "jumpssed" fans > nasty about quads (i.e. a SMALL minority)

I would draw a venn diagram but I don't have a means to do so.

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I just laughed so loud both my cats ran out of the room!

TMC said:

No no, don't get me wrong - I only meant those people who got their knickers in a mighty twist when Lysacek won over Plushenko, for example. The "you're not a man if don't do quads, you should compete with the ladies" squad.

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I thought Plushenko should've won over Lysacek in Vancouver. And it had nothing to do with quad. I thought Plushenko delivered a better performance and Lysacek was quite forgettable even if his jumps were smoother. I hadn't watched figure skating for years at that point (since Michelle Kwan's career ended in ), and I wasn't a Plushenko diehard at the time (though I remembered him from SLC). I didn't know much about this "quad" business, except that so many men fell on them. I remember Plushenko didn't fall on said "quad," but I couldn't even remember if Lysacek did a quad or not... (like I said, not very memorable...). I only became aware of the whole quad controversy after the fact, when Elvis Stojko criticized the results.

I feel it's kinda odd to divide fans along the lines of "jump obsessed"/"not jump obsessed", and even more so to use Vancouver as a dividing line. I like the "jumper" Hanyu (but I don't simply like him for his jumps), and I like the quadless (so far!) Jason. And if Hanyu falls on both quads, I will happily place Jason ahead if I were a judge (I highly doubt the actual judges will do the same, but that's another matter). However, if they both skate clean with some amount of flare, I'd probably give it to the guy with the quad. It's a sport after all.

Frankly, I don't think those people who give Jason flak for being "quadless" are doing it because they like the quad. I think they're doing it because they dislike Jason (for whatever reason), and the quad is just a vehicle for their attack. Once Jason gets a quad, those people will just start criticizing him for something else. It's not jump-obsessed fans that are the problem; it's Jason-haters (and Hanyu-haters, and Max-haters, and every person who feels offended when someone they don't like has fans).

Sandpiper said:

I thought Plushenko should've won over Lysacek in Vancouver. And it had nothing to do with quad. I thought Plushenko delivered a better performance and Lysacek was quite forgettable even if his jumps were smoother. I hadn't watched figure skating for years at that point (since Michelle Kwan's career ended in ), and I wasn't a Plushenko diehard at the time (though I remembered him from SLC). I didn't know much about this "quad" business, except that so many men fell on them. I remember Plushenko didn't fall on said "quad," but I couldn't even remember if Lysacek did a quad or not... (like I said, not very memorable...). I only became aware of the whole quad controversy after the fact, when Elvis Stojko criticized the results.

I feel it's kinda odd to divide fans along the lines of "jump obsessed"/"not jump obsessed", and even more so to use Vancouver as a dividing line. I like the "jumper" Hanyu (but I don't simply like him for his jumps), and I like the quadless (so far!) Jason. And if Hanyu falls on both quads, I will happily place Jason ahead if I were a judge (I highly doubt the actual judges will do the same, but that's another matter). However, if they both skate clean with some amount of flare, I'd probably give it to the guy with the quad. It's a sport after all.

Frankly, I don't think those people who give Jason flak for being "quadless" are doing it because they like the quad. I think they're doing it because they dislike Jason (for whatever reason), and the quad is just a vehicle for their attack. Once Jason gets a quad, those people will just start criticizing him for something else. It's not jump-obsessed fans that are the problem; it's Jason-haters (and Hanyu-haters, and Max-haters, and every person who feels offended when someone they don't like has fans).

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Very good points, especially your last paragraph. It's very hard for me to understand why this happens though, but it apparently it does. I used Vancouver as an example especially because there was so much venom towards Evan afterwards, mostly because he didn't have the quad. It just went way too far. A bit like the hatred towards Adelina this time. I understand people being unhappy with the result, but I don't understand the awful malice that comes from it.

I regret writing jump-obsessed on its own, I should have added "to the point of becoming abusive". I thought the word "obsessed" would be enough to denote "not in a good way", as opposed to for example "jump-loving". I just think that even if you don't like a result, there's no need for name-calling and berating someone else. There's enough negativity in the world to go around as it is.

LRK said:

I never bashed Evan - not even in private. In fact I stopped talking about his skating altogether - it really isn't my cup of tea, but I was afraid that what I said about it, might be out of malice, and I did not want that.

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I really applaud you for this. It is a rare human being that has such self-knowledge and is able to reason and curb their own potentially negative behaviour. I wish more people were like you in this sense

Okay, let's get back to talking about the US MEN (of present!)

Anyway, Stephen Carriere had a respectable performance here. Updated stats (which are on the original page as well).

He caused a lot of men to lose points, including Jason Brown, which means the following overall score (top 5 get points 15-13-11-9-7):

Jason Brown — 91
Max Aaron — 91
Richard Dornbush — 89
Stephen Carriere — 52
Ross Miner — 39
Grant Hochstein — 16
Alexander Johnson - 7

So now we have a two-way tie for first and Richard is RIGHT there. Stephen has secured himself in fourth place for now.





OVERALL
Max Aaron 240.22* (U.S. International Classic)
Richard Dornbush 237.28* (Lombardia Trophy)
Jason Brown 237.17 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
Stephen Carriere 219.76* (Ondrej Nepela Trophy)
Ross Miner 209.78 (U.S. International Classic)
—
Grant Hochstein 204.37* (Lombardia Trophy)
Douglas Razanno 199.57* (U.S. International Classic)
Alexander Johnson 191.41 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
Jordan Moeller 189.81* (U.S. International Classic)
Shotaro Omori 173.54 (ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)
Shotaro Omori 165.97 (JGP Ljubljana Cup)


SP
Jason Brown 83.59 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
Richard Dornbush 79.36 (Lombardia Trophy)
Max Aaron 78.96* (U.S. International Figure Skating Classic)
Grant Hochstein 72.92* (Lombardia Trophy)
Stephen Carriere 71.18 (Ondrej Nepela Trophy)
——
Alexander Johnson 69.20* (Nebelhorn Trophy)
Ross Miner 67.06 (U.S. International Figure Skating Classic)
Shotaro Omori 66.30 ((ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)
Douglas Razzano 66.15* (U.S. International Figure Skating Classic)
Jordan Moeller 64.21 (U.S. International Figure Skating Classic)
Shotaro Omori 58.82 (JGP Ljubljana Cup)



SP TES
Jason Brown 43.50
Richard Dornbush 42.51
Max Aaron 41.01
Stephen Carriere 38.33
Grant Hochstein 37.97
—-
Shotaro Omori 35.52
Douglas Razzano 33.85
Alexander Johnson 33.29
Shotaro Omori 32.71
Jordan Moeller 31.71
Ross Miner 30.46


SP PCS
Jason Brown 40.09
Max Aaron 38.95
Richard Dornbush 37.85
Ross Miner 36.60
Alexander Johnson 35.91
—
Grant Hochstein 34.95
Stephen Carriere 33.85
Jordan Moeller 33.50
Douglas Razzano 33.30
Shotaro Omori 30.78 (ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)
Shotaro Omori 28.11

FS
Max Aaron 161.26
Richard Dornbush 157.92*
Jason Brown 153.58
Stephen Carriere 148.58*
Ross Miner 142.72
—
Douglas Razzano 133.42*
Grant Hochstein 131.45*
Jordan Moeller 125.60*
Alexander Johnson 122.21*
Shotaro Omori 107.24 ((ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)
Shotaro Omori 107.15
-

TES
Max Aaron 83.46
Richard Dornbush 76.92
Stephen Carriere 75.18
Jason Brown 67.74
Ross Miner 67.72
—
Douglas Razzano 64.32
Grant Hochstein 62.35
Jordan Moeller 60.70
Alexander Johnson 53.55
Shotaro Omori 47.43
Shotaro Omori 43.38 (ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)


PCS

Jason Brown 85.84*
Richard Dornbush 81.00*
Max Aaron 78.80*
Ross Miner 75.00
Stephen Carriere 73.40*
—-
Grant Hochstein 71.10*
Douglas Razzano 70.10*
Alexander Johnson 69.66*
Jordan Moeller 66.90*
Shotaro Omori 63.86 (ISU Poka der Baluen Schwerter 2014)
Shotaro Omori 60.72

TMC said:

Very good points, especially your last paragraph. It's very hard for me to understand why this happens though, but it apparently it does. I used Vancouver as an example especially because there was so much venom towards Evan afterwards, mostly because he didn't have the quad. It just went way too far. A bit like the hatred towards Adelina this time. I understand people being unhappy with the result, but I don't understand the awful malice that comes from it.

I regret writing jump-obsessed on its own, I should have added "to the point of becoming abusive". I thought the word "obsessed" would be enough to denote "not in a good way", as opposed to for example "jump-loving". I just think that even if you don't like a result, there's no need for name-calling and berating someone else. There's enough negativity in the world to go around as it is.

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It never makes sense to blame the skater. It's not like they scored themselves.

I feel like the quad has just become a convenient way to criticize someone: "He doesn't have the quad," "he has nothing but the quad," ect. A lot of it actually translates to "I don't like his skating. But that's a lot more difficult to explain, and also very subjective. It takes more thought to discuss whether the arm movement at 2:30 fit the nuances of the music, or whether Person A with the simple but fast spin should win over Person B with the slower but more complex spin, ect.

Maybe, in the case of Evan, he's become a symbol (of the quadless champion), so some people do literally dislike him for the lack of a quad. But I highly doubt the same thing applies to Jason. He only just arrived in seniors and all he's won are some senior B's! So giving him a verdict of "quadless champion" at this stage of his career is absurd, since we don't know if he'll stay quadless and we don't know if he'll ever win anything major.

Sandpiper said:

It never makes sense to blame the skater. It's not like they scored themselves.

I feel like the quad has just become a convenient way to criticize someone: "He doesn't have the quad," "he has nothing but the quad," ect. A lot of it actually translates to "I don't like his skating. But that's a lot more difficult to explain, and also very subjective. It takes more thought to discuss whether the arm movement at 2:30 fit the nuances of the music, or whether Person A with the simple but fast spin should win over Person B with the slower but more complex spin, ect.

Maybe, in the case of Evan, he's become a symbol (of the quadless champion), so some people do literally dislike him for the lack of a quad. But I highly doubt the same thing applies to Jason. He only just arrived in seniors and all he's won are some senior B's! So giving him a verdict of "quadless champion" at this stage of his career is absurd, since we don't know if he'll stay quadless and we don't know if he'll ever win anything major.

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You've definitely opened my eyes in this matter; I tend to take what is written at face value and when somebody wrote "omg we need to get some ladies to show this quadless guy what real figure skating is" - I thought simply that their problem was the lack of quad. And if that quad materialised, then they might still prefer another skater, but they wouldn't be so arsey about it. But you definitely may have hit the nail on the head here. The lack of quad is a convenient way of pointing out what is wrong, when it really may be something different altogether, even something that the critic can't really describe in any other terms.

HanDomi said:

to get the bronze:

a) few must bomb, because queue for podium is longer
b) he msut have totally two perfect programs


What means jump obssesed fans ? It is harsh comment. Because someone admire Hanyu jumping ability and his technic, or Javi is jump obsessed fan ?


I bet if Jason would be jumping quads like Hanyu or Javi his fans would be screaming how he is great jumper and jumps are very important ! ....

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First, as a competitor, I never hoped for Bronze. If I could get on the podium, I wanted to be on the top step. I was a terrible loser and I worked very hard to make sure it didn't happen.

I think at this point in his career, Jason is not focused on winning. I could be wrong but it clearly seems like his coach has a plan. A very good plan IMO. They have clearly decided to focus on his performance skills which are superior to most skaters.

This keeps the pressure off of him while he continues to develop his technical skills. We all know how important it is to stay injury free and Jason is young enough to wait until he can perform quads without risking his overall health.

Lastly, I think some people don't give Jason enough credit for his transitions into and out of his jumps. His programs are well choreographed and he delivers them with high quality. He has a good head on his shoulders and doesn't have those disaster performances that we have seen from other top US Men. I see Jason as the future.

It's different for Jeremy, Max, Ross and Richard. They have been seniors for long enough to know that they must deliver now. They all have quads and they need to deliver them on a consistent basis. Jeremy has the skills to win Worlds if he delivers like we've seen him deliver at Nationals. Does he have a sport psychologist ? With his ability, I don't understand his roller coaster career.

TMC said:

You've definitely opened my eyes in this matter; I tend to take what is written at face value and when somebody wrote "omg we need to get some ladies to show this quadless guy what real figure skating is" - I thought simply that their problem was the lack of quad. And if that quad materialised, then they might still prefer another skater, but they wouldn't be so arsey about it. But you definitely may have hit the nail on the head here. The lack of quad is a convenient way of pointing out what is wrong, when it really may be something different altogether, even something that the critic can't really describe in any other terms.

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Well, if someone says, "Enthusiastic performance, but he's not very exciting to me without a quad. I would've placed him behind Abbott and Aaron at Nationals LP," then I suspect they mean what they say. I don't see the problem with comments like this, since it's valid criticism. I suspect this person will think better of Jason once he gets a quad. But if someone says something insulting, like, "OMG, what a sissy! No quad lolololol!"... well, I highly doubt this person will like Jason no matter what he does. Sounds like intense personal dislike that can't be fixed, not even with the quad.

mrrice said:

It's different for Jeremy, Max, Ross and Richard. They have been seniors for long enough to know that they must deliver now. They all have quads and they need to deliver them on a consistent basis. Jeremy has the skills to win Worlds if delivers like we've seen him deliver at Nationals. Does he have a sport psychologist ? With his ability, I don't understand his roller coaster career.

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I feel like Jeremy's chance to win Worlds has come and passed. Even if he skates his absolute best, he doesn't have the BV, GOE, or PCS to compete with the top guys (some argue his PCS should be higher, but they're not going to be after his years of inconsistency). Maybe, circa. 2009-10, he could've won worlds, but now it'll take the top guys popping/Zayaking all over the place for him to win.

I think he has a chance to medal though, if he skates as good as Nationals. Every year we get a few top contender bombs.

Sandpiper said:

Well, if someone says, "Enthusiastic performance, but he's not very exciting to me without a quad. I would've placed him behind Abbott and Aaron at Nationals LP," then I suspect they mean what they say. I don't see the problem with comments like this, since it's valid criticism. I suspect this person will think better of Jason once he gets a quad. But if someone says something insulting, like, "OMG, what a sissy! No quad lolololol!"... well, I highly doubt this person will like Jason no matter what he does. Sounds like intense personal dislike that can't be fixed, not even with the quad.

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That is exactly what I feel! I have no problem if someone says "I don't think they should get such and such points because they don't have a quad; it's a sport after all". I am perfectly fine with that. But when it starts getting insulting like you described - well that is where I draw the line. I just isn't necessary.

Sandpiper said:

I feel like Jeremy's chance to win Worlds has come and passed. Even if he skates his absolute best, he doesn't have the BV, GOE, or PCS to compete with the top guys (some argue his PCS should be higher, but they're not going to be after his years of inconsistency). Maybe, circa. 2009-10, he could've won worlds, but now it'll take the top guys popping/Zayaking all over the place for him to win.

I think he has a chance to medal though, if he skates as good as Nationals. Every year we get a few top contender bombs.

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I feel so sorry for Jeremy. I am by no means a fan of his, but I can watch him and appreciate that he has amazing talent. He is one of those skaters whom I can see is special but still does not pull at my special heart strings. There isn't anything that he lacks that the current top skaters have (Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez, Ten). He has the quad, he has the SS, he has the choreo. The only thing that is lacking is the confidence. It is heartbreaking that he can't pull it together. But since he's continuing this season he still has a chance! Past experience says he won't do it, but then look at Paul Wylie! It's not impossible.

Somebody said, after his Worlds performance, that his relatively low PCS was a sign from the judges to just give up. I hope that is not true.

TMC said:

That is exactly what I feel! I have no problem if someone says "I don't think they should get such and such points because they don't have a quad; it's a sport after all". I am perfectly fine with that. But when it starts getting insulting like you described - well that is where I draw the line. I just isn't necessary.

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Jason can't win with those insulting people. He can get a quad axel and they'll still hate him.

EDIT- Regarding Jeremy: I'm not sold on him, but his Saitama LP did give me a glimpse into what others find so special about him. He doesn't have the technical arsenal (or the reputation) to compete with the top guys, but I'd be really, really happy for him if he medals with two perfect programs. (I just hope it's not at the expense of Javi Zayaking, because that's a touchy subject for me ).

And yes, Paul Wylie was a wonderful moment! But... he still "only" managed to take silver, in a badly skated event, behind Viktor Petrenko who skated possibly the worst Olympic-winning LP of the past two decades. If Wylie hadn't been so inconsistent, would he perhaps have won gold? There are times when I think he deserved it, because his overall performance was stronger even if Viktor landed more triples. I have a feeling that if Jeremy skates cleanly, something similar would happen: he'd medal, it'll be a wonderful moment, but the colour won't be gold. (And that's alright, of course! I was simply responding to the possibility of him outright winning Worlds).

You are so right about Paul and Jeremy. I loved Paul's skating style but he was a terrible competitor who had some great "Moments." However, IMO, he didn't have a great competitive career. He was a wonderful pro skater and was definitely an inspiration for many skaters. I think Jeremy is far more talented than Paul was and has a better resume of wins.

Jeremy has two problems when it comes to Worlds. First, for some reason he doesn't skate well on big stages which I still can't understand.

Second, and a bigger problem is his reputation among the Judges. I fear that even if he skates well, the judges will think, "Wow, that was really great, for Jeremy" I'll give him Bronze. Even if he deserves the Gold. Politics and past performances will definitely play a part with Jeremy. He must have a great grand prix season if he hopes to do well at worlds.

Unfortunately, he's past the point where judges will hold him up.

I think Paul did have a great career. At least, he is remembered that way: by finally getting it together and winning a medal on the biggest stage of all. He then went on to have quite the pro career, since that's just around the time skating exploded due to the Tonya-Nancy debacle.

Jeremy, unfortunately, seems to have missed the boat. He has a better win percentage if we consider nationals, but I doubt he'd be remembered so well as Paul Wylie. It's unlikely he'll make it to another Olympics, so even if he gets it together, he couldn't end his career with the same bang that Paul ended his. It's also unlikely he'll win World gold, and world silver/bronze are both afterthoughts compared to the Olympics. And of course he's not skating in an era where FS is super popular in his home country, so he likely won't have Paul's success in shows either.

mrrice said:

Politics and past performances will definitely play a part with Jeremy. He must have a great grand prix season if he hopes to do well at worlds.

Unfortunately, he's past the point where judges will hold him up.

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It's going to be difficult to do that going into SA with a 4 week old SP, a new LP, and no prep competition.

mrrice said:

It's different for Jeremy, Max, Ross and Richard. They have been seniors for long enough to know that they must deliver now.

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You do realise this is only Max's SECOND Senior GP season (yep, same as Jason!) and only his third season as an international Senior altogether, right?


Now I'm just really frustrated for Josh. He really needed to be able to lay down an early season marker at that Skate Canada thingo. Instead, everyone is racking up ranking points and SBs and PBs and rep and he's stuck recovering from ankle sprains. Argh.