Will Sochi's Olympic team skating return in 2018?

Matt K said:

I hope not. Skaters would just phone in their performances at that point.

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Perhaps, but unlikely. I would prefer that than skaters like Ashley and Jeremy who used poor performances in the team event to claim they were using it as a warm up of sorts. Which by the way I never believed, that was just an excuse by both to deflect bad programs.

I think having the team event after might mean that the skaters are actually more relaxed - and some may be wanting redemption for poor performances in the individual.

In an ideal world we will have both the team and synchro events.
I really enjoy watching synchronsied skating. Its really a party sport.

Icey said:

The general public will eat synchro up imo.

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Not so sure about this comment. If the general public loved synchro skating so much the IOC would have included it as an Olympic sport/ event for the money. This is not show skating this is the the olympics.

Part 1

Sorry for saying the same thing again, but I really do not like this format that is being used for the Olympic Team Event.

I loved the World Team Trophy. I loved the way that the fact it was held at the end of the season produced a relaxed and fun atmosphere. There was no pressure, so the skaters could just go there and enjoy themselves!

There were only 3 things I didn’t like about the WTT:

1. They should have had 2 entries per country in the Pairs and Dance (just like they have in the Singles categories)
2. There were not enough teams taking part! (The WTT has only 6 teams).
3. It should be held annually, not biennially!

I can’t remember if I posted it at the time, but my suggestion for how to improve the WTT was to increase the number of teams starting the Short Programmes to 12, and have the top 8 teams go through to the Free Skates.

Oh, and hold it at the end of every season, and have 2 entries per country per category!

Contrast that with my feelings about the Olympic Team Event. The only thing I like about it is that there is a decent number of teams competing!

I don’t like the way it is being held before the Individual competitions. As a result, there is a lot of pressure on the skaters to perform well, as it is seen as a warm-up to the Individual competition.

I don’t like the way that there is only one skater/couple per country per category, as it places an enormous amount of pressure on one set of shoulders to put in a good performance for the team.

I don’t like the way the teams can change which skaters/couples represent them in each category between segments.

So, here are my suggestions for how to improve it:

1. Hold it AFTER the Individual competitions.
2. Have 12 countries competing in Short Programmes of the Team Event instead of just 10. (For Sochi, that would have let Australia and Estonia compete in the Team Event).
3. Have the Top 8 countries in the Short Programme advance to the Free Skate, instead of just the Top 5. (For Sochi, that would have let France, China and Germany advance to the FS).
4. Have TWO skaters/couples representing each country in all categories.
5. Have the SAME skaters/couples representing each country for the entirety of their category’s competition.

If we have 12 countries with 2 competitors in the SP in each category, that will mean that we have 24 entries in total for each category. Consequently, the scoring system will need to be adjusted.

Personally, I would be tempted to do away with the points scoring system altogether. It would be much easier to just add together the Total Segment Scores for the two competitors representing each country.

As an experiment, I took the scores from the three previous runnings of the WTT, and have worked out what the results would have been if this system had been used. And it proved to be very interesting.

2009 World Team Trophy


In 2009, the only difference was that, instead of finishing at the bottom of the table, Japan would have leap-frogged Russia and China, and finished 4[SUP]th[/SUP]. All the other countries would have been in the same order.

2012 World Team Trophy


In 2012, we would have had the 2 countries at the top swapping positions, and the 2 countries at the bottom swapping positions. So, Japan would have won the Gold medal instead of America, while Italy would have been last instead of Russia.

2013 World Team Trophy


In 2013, the only difference was that, instead of finishing in 4[SUP]th[/SUP], Japan would have leap-frogged Canada and China, and won the Silver medal. All the other countries would have been in the same order.


So, by taking the results from the Total Segment Scores, BOTH of my favourite teams would have done better. Especially Japan, who would have done A LOT better EVERY YEAR. Bearing in mind that Japan hosts the event, I am amazed that the JSF haven’t been campaigning to the ISU to bring in this system!

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Part 2

...Continued from above

Those were my thoughts when I first started writing this comment a few months ago. However, after recent events, my feelings are now very mixed.

I still feel that the format I have proposed should be used for the World Team Trophy. HOWEVER, for the Olympics, I now feel that a different tactic should be taken.

Recently, we have seen Liza Tuktamysheva do 3 Senior B competitions and a Grand Prix in the space of 6 weeks. She dominated all segments of the Senior B’s. But come Skate America, she only led by 1.84 points after the SP, and was beaten by 7.69 points in the FS.

The Ladies FS at the Cup of Nice was on the morning of 19[SUP]th[/SUP] October. The Ladies SP at Skate America was on the afternoon of 25[SUP]th[/SUP] October. In those 4 days in between, Liza had to fly from the south of France to Illinois, get over the jetlag, and prepare herself for the competition.

I don’t know if it was the tight schedule between the Cup of Nice and Skate America, or whether it was burnout from doing 4 competitions in 6 weeks. But, either way, the lesson to take away is that you shouldn’t do too many competitions in a small space of time.

So, rather than have it as a competition on ice, I think the Team Competition at the Olympics would work better as a competition ON PAPER.

Basically, you rank the countries by how well their skaters did in the individual competitions. And, as I suggested for the WTT above, I would use the segment scores to work out the results for the Team competition.

However, I would make one slight change. As the Olympic Team Competition would be based on the results of the individual competitions, I wouldn’t bother eliminating the 4 bottom teams after the SP. We’re already eliminating skaters, so I think that would be sufficient.

The question is, though, how many skaters’ segment scores should count towards the Team score?

There are 3 options:

1. Use the segment scores from ALL the skaters from each country (the Formula 1 Constructors Championship model)
2. Use the segment scores from the Top 2 skaters from each country in each segment (the ISU World Team Trophy model)
3. Use the segment scores from the Top skater from each country in each segment (the FIM Constructors Championships model)

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Part 3

...Continued from above

Option 1: The “Formula 1 Constructors Championship” Model

In Formula 1, each team builds their own chassis, so each team is classed as a constructor in their own right. Each team runs TWO cars (although, there are arguments at the moment about whether some teams should be allowed to run a third car…)

When calculating the points in the Constructors Championship, the points scored by ALL cars for each constructor are included in the calculation. (OK, so at the moment, that would be 2 cars, like in the WTT model. But, if they ran 3 cars, then 3 cars would be included; if they ran 4 cars, then 4 cars would be included; etc. So, it is not the same as the WTT model.)

The problem with this model is that figure skating is not like Formula 1. Not all countries have the same number of entries. So, under this model, those countries with multiple entries would obviously have a big advantage in the Team Competition over those countries with only one entry.


If you look at the number of entries each of the Top 4 countries had, it is obvious why they would have finished in this order if this model had been used:

1. Canada had 3 entries in 3 of the categories, and 2 entries in the other category.
2. America had 3 entries in 2 of the categories, and 2 entries in the other 2 categories.
3. Russia had 3 entries in 2 of the categories, 2 entries in another category, and 1 entry in the remaining category.
4. Japan had 3 entries in 2 of the categories, and 1 entry in the other 2 categories

So, when looking down the final positions under this model, it is:

• countries with 3 entries in at least one category at the top;
• countries with 2 entries in at least one category in the middle;
• countries with at most 1 entry in each category at the bottom.

Option 2: The “World Team Trophy” Model

In the World Team Trophy, each country is represented by 2 entries in each category. So, it would make sense to use the same rules for the Olympics Team Competition.

Now, for those countries that have more than 2 entries in a category (i.e. the Canada, America, Russia and Japan), the score would be calculated by taking the segment scores for their Top 2 skaters in each segment. Please be aware, these may not necessarily be their Top 2 skaters in that category overall, or even the same 2 skaters in each segment.


[SUP]¥[/SUP] Akiko Suzuki and Kanako Murakami in SP; Mao Asada and Akiko Suzuki in FS

In this model, the top 3 countries are the same countries, but just in a different order. Rather than being 9.41 points behind Canada, America would be 7.89 ahead. Russia would still be third.

The big loser would be Japan, who would drop from 4[SUP]th[/SUP] under the F1 rules to 8[SUP]th[/SUP] under the WTT rules. This is largely because having 3 skaters bringing good results in each of the Singles categories made up for their Pairs and Dance teams not advancing to the Free.

But, apart from Japan dropping down the order, the general trend is the same:

• countries with 3 entries in at least one category are still at the top (albeit in a different order);
• countries with 2 entries in at least one category are still in the middle (and in the same order);
• countries with at most 1 entry in each category are still at the bottom (and in the same order).

Option 3: The “FIM Constructors Championships” Model

In motorbike racing, each team runs bikes made by a motorbike manufacturer. There is no limit to the number of teams that each manufacturer can supply, or to the number of bikes they can have on the grid. Most teams run 2 bikes, but they can run more if they had the money to run more. Plus, unlike in F1, wildcard entries are allowed.

Some manufacturers may be running 1 or 2 bikes, while others may be running 5, 6 or even more bikes. So, if the Constructors Championship was calculated the same way for bikes as it is for cars, those manufacturers with more bikes would run away into the distance.

To prevent this, when calculating the points in the Constructors Championship, only the points scored by THE FIRST BIKE across the line for each manufacturer are included in the calculation.

Unlike in other models, the countries with multiple entries are not at a clear advantage due to sheer number of skaters out on the ice, boosting the points score. Instead, all countries are on a level playing field.

However, for those countries that have multiple entries in a category, the score would be calculated by taking the segment scores for their Top skaters in each segment. Please be aware, these may not necessarily be their Top skater in that category overall, or even the same skater in each segment.


[SUP]$[/SUP] Jason Brown in SP; Jeremy Abbott in FS
[SUP]¥[/SUP] Akiko Suzuki in SP; Mao Asada in FS
* Megan Duhamel / Eric Radford in SP; Kirsten Moore-Towers / Dylan Moscovitch in FS

Under this model, the Top 2 countries would revert back to the same order as in the F1 Model: Canada would win by 4.09 points over America. HOWEVER, the differences below this are significant.

Russia would drop out of the Top 3 completely, and would instead finish SIXTH. This is largely because they only had one entry in the individual Men’s competition, and after Plushenko withdrew during the SP warm-up, they were left with nobody in the Men’s category. In the other Models, the good results from Russia’s extra entries in the other categories were able to make up for this. But not any more.

Overtaking Russia would be most of the countries that had 2 entries in at least one category. The only one that did not overtake Russia was Italy, largely because Paul Parkinson did not advance to the FS.

Japan would finish 8[SUP]th[/SUP], just as they did under the WTT Model.

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Part 4

...Continued from above

Under all these models, the big loser would have been Russia. Plushenko’s withdrawal from the individual Men’s competition would have left them at a disadvantage, and they would not have had a hope of winning.

But that started me thinking. If there had not been a separate team competition beforehand, then Plushenko may not have needed to withdraw from the individual Men’s competition. So, as an experiment, I put Plushenko’s Olympic Team Event scores into the tables.

Under the F1 Model and the WTT Model, Russia would still have finished in the same position. However, under the FIM Model, Russia would have won the Team Competition by a comfortable 65.54 points.

The big winner, on the other hand, would have been Australia. Under the rules used in Sochi, only 10 countries qualified for the Team Competition. But, under my proposed rules, 12 countries would qualify. Not only would this mean Estonia and Australia would be included in the Team Competition results, but Australia would finish 9[SUP]th[/SUP]. That would make them the top team with at most 1 entry in each category, overtaking the Ukraine and Great Britain.

Speaking of Great Britain, in theory, they would be a loser under my proposals, as they did not have any representatives in the individual Men’s competition. But, even if we added Matthew Parr score from the Olympic Team Event SP into the tables, it would not have made any difference to Great Britain’s position under any of the models.

FIM Model Table (With Plushenko And Parr's OTE Scores)


[SUP]$[/SUP] Jason Brown in SP; Jeremy Abbott in FS
[SUP]¥[/SUP] Akiko Suzuki in SP; Mao Asada in FS
* Megan Duhamel / Eric Radford in SP; Kirsten Moore-Towers / Dylan Moscovitch in FS


My own personal opinion is that the fairest way of calculating the Team Scores would be to use the FIM Constructors Championship Model.

Countries with multiple entries might complain that only having one TSS in each Segment counting towards the Team Competition is unfair on them, as they had earned the right to run extra skaters because of how they had done during the season, and that this should be reflected in the Team Competition. However, they will still be able to use this to their advantage as they are not relying on just one skater to produce the goods in both segments (and, as we all know, skaters can have off days). Instead, they can use the scores from their best skater in each segment to boost their score.


But, having the Olympic Team Event as a competition on paper raises one major problem.

The whole reason the Team Event was introduced was to make up for there being less action on the ice, now that Ice Dance had been cut down to 2 Segments (Short Dance and Free Dance) from the previous 3 (Compulsory Dance, Original Dance and Free Dance).

If we were to make the Team Event a paper exercise, we would be back at Square 1!

So, to fill the gap, I think the best option would be to introduce Synchronised Skating as an Olympic event.

Personally, I am not a fan of Synchro. I just don’t see the point in it. I do appreciate that it takes a lot of skill for so many skaters to work in sync. And when it’s good, it can be very impressive. But the problem is when it’s bad. It is like watching a train crash!

So, it may have taken a few months to get around to finishing it and posting it, but those are my thoughts on the Team Competitions.

What do you think of my suggestions?

CaroLiza_fan

Caroliza_fan said:

There were only 3 things I didn’t like about the WTT:

1. They should have had 2 entries per country in the Pairs and Dance (just like they have in the Singles categories)

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Japan does not have two pairs or dance teams. This is a commercial venture put on by Japanese television and corporate interests.

What do you think of my suggestions?

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My reading is cut out for me for the next two weeks. One thing to bear in mind is that the ISU does not have complete control over the format of the Olympic team event. The IOC dictates a lot of it, such as when the event takes place and how many athletes are involved.

The only solution: I hope there will be more fed try their best to develop pairs and ice dancing as well. :hopelessness:

Mathman said:

Japan does not have two pairs or dance teams. This is a commercial venture put on by Japanese television and corporate interests.

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Is there anything in the WTT rules that says that you can't enter Juniors in a team competition? I just looked at last year's Junior Nationals results, and there were 2 teams entered in the Junior Ice Dance.


Here is the podium photo.

There were no Junior Pairs, though.

Mathman said:

My reading is cut out for me for the next two weeks. One thing to bear in mind is that the ISU does not have complete control over the format of the Olympic team event. The IOC dictates a lot of it, such as when the event takes place and how many athletes are involved.

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Yeah, that is the problem with the Olympics. Too many chiefs, and all that!

It's hard enough for one governing body to make decisions for the good of the sport, never mind two!

CaroLiza_fan

Meoima said:

The only solution: I hope there will be more fed try their best to develop pairs and ice dancing as well. :hopelessness:

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I miss Takahashi/Tran...but that's for another thread.

I hope the team event returns but it should be held after the individual events.

I liked the team competition last year, but I think that it's going to be Synchro or team event. I think that if they decide to have the team event again, then they should say that you need two pairs teams, two dance teams, two men, two ladies, ect.

Skater Boy said:

Not so sure about this comment. If the general public loved synchro skating so much the IOC would have included it as an Olympic sport/ event for the money. This is not show skating this is the the olympics.

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Did you really just compare elite senior synchronized skating to show skating? Do you have any idea how hard synchronized skating is? It's every bit as hard as men's, ladies, dance, and pairs. Some say it may actually even be more difficult than dance, because you have to stay in perfect unison with 15 teammates, not just one.