Short Dance Choreographic Penalties at Nebelhorn 2014

canadablue · Sep 29, 2014

GF2445 said:
Someone has to explain this is really easy layman terms.
I have no idea what the long axis is?
And what does it look like to violate the rule in easy words.

The long axis is an imaginary line dividing the ice by two lengthwise. Crossing it must happen within 20 m of the boards.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/1_zps943c8c45.png

During the SD, teams have to move in an overall counter-clockwise direction, presumably because that's how compulsory dances developed.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/2_zps8ca6a437.png

But they're allowed to do loops in either a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction as long as they don't cross the long axis.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/3_zps8516d79e.png

In this season's SD, during the new element called the partial step sequence only, teams are allowed to perform a loop (either clockwise or counter-clockwise) that crosses the long axis. This is a possible example. As I understand it, the 3 crosses (in red) would all have to be within 20 m of the boards.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/4_zpsa738ba17.png

It's hard to say exactly what a violation involving the long axis would look like because the pattern of each team's choreography is going to be different, and exactly where they are on the ice is especially hard to tell when only watching on TV/internet stream.

GF2445 · Sep 29, 2014

canadablue said:
The long axis is an imaginary line dividing the ice by two lengthwise. Crossing it must happen within 20 m of the boards.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/1_zps943c8c45.png

During the SD, teams have to move in an overall counter-clockwise direction, presumably because that's how compulsory dances developed.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/2_zps8ca6a437.png

But they're allowed to do loops in either a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction as long as they don't cross the long axis.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/3_zps8516d79e.png

In this season's SD, during the new element called the partial step sequence only, teams are allowed to perform a loop (either clockwise or counter-clockwise) that crosses the long axis. This is a possible example. As I understand it, the 3 crosses (in red) would all have to be within 20 m of the boards.
http://i1375.photobucket.com/albums/ag463/canadablue/choreo%20deduction/4_zpsa738ba17.png

It's hard to say exactly what a violation involving the long axis would look like because the pattern of each team's choreography is going to be different, and exactly where they are on the ice is especially hard to tell when only watching on TV/internet stream.

Thankyou so much for explaining that to me. Ice dance is usually my favourite to watch so its great that you help explained it to me.i was trying to research the rule on the internet but i sort of got lost.

GF2445 · Sep 29, 2014

So as long as they dont cross that long axis in the centre 20 metres, they are fine. Got it.

noskates · Sep 29, 2014

So - layman writing here - it sounds like the judges got together and decided to enforce this rule at Nebelhorn where they might have not been so picky in the past? Or is it just because of the dance being used this year?

And I agree that at least it's early in the season and they can "fix" it. Strange that all those teams' coaches or choreographers were seemingly not aware of it......

FSGMT · Sep 29, 2014

Can anyone find the violation in any of the performances and share it with us, so we can see it (or at least try to guess how it looks like)?

hanca · Sep 29, 2014

I think it won't be as visible on screen if you don't look at them from top. If you watch it live, you can see where is the imaginary line in the middle of the rink, but on TV the camera concentrates more on the skaters and doesn't clearly show on which part of the rink they are skating.

blue eyed birds · Sep 29, 2014

Something I'm wondering is if it's not that the coaches/choreographers and teams are unaware of the rule, but that the new loop exception could be somewhat responsible. I'm curious how far off the 20m mark most teams found themselves, and if the violation is more a problem of adjusting to that placement and sometimes missing the mark by the slightest degree, especially when moving from one rink to another.

It would be awfully nice if these events would start offering an overhead-cam livestream.

sisinka · Sep 29, 2014

canadablue said:
Lynn Rutherford's tweets:
Am told in step sequence Nebelhorn SD 8/11 couples crossed middle axis of the rink at or near center ice instead of at the ends.
This violates old rule. Nebelhorn used split judging. Prior to event judges critiquing choreo were reminded of old rule.

I understand it that instead of skating in some similar way like I pointed blue line, skaters centered or almost centered the ice like I pointed red line, and this was against the rules maybe (watching some dancers – W&P, Z&G and H&B did it, the rest of field I didn’t look at).

Weaver & Poje also crossed the rule about having Key Point 1 and 2 from second Pattern approximately on the same place like Key Point 1 from the first Pattern, because in second Pattern Kaitlyn and Andrew got much closer to the boards (so in second Patttern during Key Point 1 and 2 they didn’t skate close to the center of the ice).

sisinka · Sep 29, 2014

dorispulaski said:
No Junior team has had this penalty imposed, and we are up through JGP#5. So it sounds like this group of judges was given a quick tutorial on the current rules as part of the SD judging "experiment," and were reminded that the old rule is there again.

I think that problem with keeping the Pattern on right place on the ice is about Pattern of Paso Doble itself. While Samba, Tango Romantica, Blues etc. have some many steps, so you simply can’t centered skating to the middle of the ice rink without breaking the board on the another side of the ice surface and falling into fans sitting behind the boards.

Paso Doble and Vienesse Waltz and maybe Rumba steps have possibility to be centered much more easily without any danger of falling out of the ice surface.

Better to find out now than at Worlds, though...

I agree, hopefully all couples will be careful about this and will never again loose points for such thing.

Meoima · Sep 29, 2014

Sorry if I am misinformed, but the experiment with new method of judging only applies for Nevelhorn this season, doesn't it? What about the whole season? Orthe next one?

gkelly · Sep 29, 2014

Meoima said:
Sorry if I am misinformed, but the experiment with new method of judging only applies for Nevelhorn this season, doesn't it? What about the whole season? Orthe next one?

The rest of this season will proceed with all judges judging all PCS as well as GOEs.

What may happen in future seasons remains to be seen, depending on discussions about the success of the Nebelhorn experiment and whatever other options might be under consideration behind the scenes.

canadablue · Sep 30, 2014

GF2445 said:
Thankyou so much for explaining that to me. Ice dance is usually my favourite to watch so its great that you help explained it to me.i was trying to research the rule on the internet but i sort of got lost.

You're very welcome! I'm glad that ended up making sense.

blue eyed birds said:
Something I'm wondering is if it's not that the coaches/choreographers and teams are unaware of the rule, but that the new loop exception could be somewhat responsible. I'm curious how far off the 20m mark most teams found themselves, and if the violation is more a problem of adjusting to that placement and sometimes missing the mark by the slightest degree, especially when moving from one rink to another.

It would be awfully nice if these events would start offering an overhead-cam livestream.

That's an interesting theory. An issue in executing the proper placement would make a lot more sense than there being some widespread issue with the design of the programs.

And that would be amazing! I'll add every broadcast showing slow motion replay of level downgrades from a proper angle to the wishlist :biggrin:

sisinka said:
I understand it that instead of skating in some similar way like I pointed blue line, skaters centered or almost centered the ice like I pointed red line, and this was against the rules maybe (watching some dancers – W&P, Z&G and H&B did it, the rest of field I didn’t look at).

You mean teams are kind of drifting over the centre and crossing it without realizing it? That would also make sense.

dorispulaski · Sep 30, 2014

Or crossing at 20.1 m. instead of 20 m. or less

Short Dance Choreographic Penalties at Nebelhorn 2014

canadablue

GF2445

GF2445

noskates

FSGMT

hanca

blue eyed birds

sisinka

sisinka

Meoima

Match Penalty

gkelly

canadablue

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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