United/Divided

berthes ghost · Apr 23, 2004

At this past worlds in Dortmund, there were alot of former German champs in attendance and featured in the program. There wasn't much reference to whom represented Eastern and whom represented Western Germany. They were all just hailed as great German skaters from the past.

In the audience, there was a least one person waving the old Soviet flag. Mr.BG seemed to think this was very politically incorrect, but nobody else seemed to be bothered by it. I could imagine the controversy the Confederate flag would have raised if bandied about in Atlanta. :eek:

Anyway, I was wondering what people thought about this incongruity. Is it better to ignore past politics and celebrate the skaters, regardless of which side of the wall they skated on? Or is it OK to celebrate fallen governments and parade flags of non existant nations at sporting events? Was the hammer and sycle just a way of including those former USSR skaters who now represent Germany and Austria, etc...in the cheer for great Russian skaters?

Ravyn Rant · Apr 23, 2004

berthes ghost said:
Is it better to ignore past politics and celebrate the skaters, regardless of which side of the wall they skated on?

In a word, yes.
Happy Friday!
Rave

soogar · Apr 23, 2004

I think that on one of the reports , Yevgeny Plushenko was wearing a CCCP team jacket at one of the practices.

There's still some division about East and West German skaters. Stefan Lindemann is from Erfurt which is a former East German town. Also Katarina Witt hosts (or perhaps produces (she had actively spoken of it)) a show on German television celebrating the the DDR. Witt has been the most candid about how she feels that she is missing a piece of her life ever since Germany united. Don't get me wrong, she's happy about the increased freedom, however she (as do many others) have happy memories of the DDR and since reunification, have felt that they are not allowed to express this nostalgia.

sk8m8 · Apr 23, 2004

I could imagine the controversy the Confederate flag would have raised if bandied about in Atlanta.

BG, speaking as a native Georgian (US) and a a resident of that beautiful city of which you speak....Unfortunately, it wouldn't be nearly loud enough.

JonnyCoop · Apr 23, 2004

I think there's a bit of "retromania" going on in Russia and Germany for the "Olden Days". Not sure why, but maybe it has to do with "those crazy kids", like American kids wearing T-shirts from TV shows that were cancelled before they were even born. Same concept, I suppose.

It's interesting how the German skating world seems to treat the division. I remember at the 1980 Worlds (also held in Dortmund), East German skaters like Annet Poetzch and Jan Hoffmann got just as warm, if not warmer reception, than the West German skaters including Ladies silver medallist Dagmar Lurz, who was actually FROM Dortmund. Of course it helps that Poetzch and Hoffmann were considerably more talented than Lurz, but the impression I got was, in Germany, as long as the skater was German, it didn't matter what part of Germany they were from.

Then at the 91 Worlds in Munich, there was a bit of a controversy over a "Salute to German Skating" presentation that went on. This presentation looked at German skaters over the last 100 years, only they focused on pre-WW2 skaters and WEST German skaters only; no mention of people like Poetzch, Hoffman, and Katarina Witt. At that point, apparently, the East didn't count. At that point they were still in existence though so maybe that had something to do with it. I guess enough time has passed now so there's an "all is forgiven" attitude of some sort going on.

Sidebar: I too seem to have bought into the "nostalgia" just a little bit as I recently purchased a CCCP soccer jersey; as a skating fan, I thought it was the appropriate country to select out of the choices given.

I think it's a variation of sorts of the same type of thing that makes some people really into weird-looking retro furniture from the 50s.....

Longhornliz · Apr 23, 2004

I think that as an american its hard for me to understand how they must be feeling considering how young the newly formed governments are (my textbooks were wrong up until the day I graduated).... I think about what it would be like to live in one of these countries all the time. I would enjoy travelling for an extended period of time and talking to the locals about it. I somehow doubt that the flag waving was as controversial or as devisive as if they had waved the swastica or something.... i dont know though.

berthes ghost · Apr 23, 2004

I somehow doubt that the flag waving was as controversial or as devisive as if they had waved the swastica or something.... i dont know though.

Actually, the swastica and all other Nazi memorabilia is illegal in Germany. I've seen on TV that you can buy it in shops in Italy along with Facist memorabilia, but not in Germany. Apparently, even being a Nazi in any organized way is now illegal, and they catch group meeting in the woods etc...

Bijoux · Apr 23, 2004

Kat Witt

I noticed very few people mentioned Kat Witt as a favorite skater in another thread I started. For the two time Oly gold and 4 time world champion whose skating I like, even I did not cite her as a favorite. It's not really being sick of her, or the many sexy skates with no content she did in the 90's explosion. I think she is funny, too, on camera. It's just too incongruous that she would lament the fall of the skating machine of the former USSR, but realize that if the wall had not fallen, she would not have reaped the money and sucess here in the west. I think she has talked about this. Katerina loves the limelight like all the top skaters do, and I don't think she's more or less arrogant than most skaters. Her achievements at least would allow her bragging power, I guess. Why the show she hosts re East German Nostagia? Her Glory days were then in East Germany

Perhaps she is more difficult to like. I dunno. I never heard of Stephan Lindemann before worlds. He is a very good skater. With the PR machine gone, I guess that's why we don't get the coverage of many good skaters in the "east."

berthes ghost · Apr 23, 2004

I never heard of Stephan Lindemann before worlds.

I think it's mostly because he never really won anything. He was World Junior Champ, but when you come in places like 12th at Euros, it's hard to build a large fan base. His stats: http://www.isufs.org/bios/isufs00000118.htm

dorispulaski · Apr 23, 2004

I think the nostalgia thing is just normal:
Just in the US how many of the following have you seen?

Confederate flags
Texas Lone Star Flags, from Republic of Texas days
13 star and Don't Tread on Me flags from the Revolution
Nazi helmets, swastikas and such on motorcyclists

Ximena · Apr 23, 2004

When the GPF was held in St Peterburg two season ago, they were a lot of Soviet Union flags along with the Russian ones and I think none really seem to bother them. I've seen a lot of Russian skaters wearing the CCCP jacket.

Ptichka · Apr 23, 2004

This is a complex issue. Let me just put down a few thoughts:

1. Nostaligia. It's much deeper than many seem to believe. The truth is that under the old regime everyone was guaranteed his or her modest place under the sun. Young people could go to free colleges. Adults were almost guaranteed a job. Old people could live on their pensions. Now, it's very different (naturally, I am talking about Russia more so than Germany). It's especially hard on older people -- many of them suddenly find themselves out of a job, with no means to support a family; as to the retirees -- many of those that do not have children that can help are going hungry every day. Unfortunately, this begets a nostalgia where people forget about the bad things. I certainly believe that the unprecedent curtailing of freedom of speach initiated by President Putin is the result of people allowing it to go on for the sake of security.

2. Germany. There are a lot of understandable tensions between former East and former West. Many in West Germany (especially Bavaria) resent having to pay higher taxes to subsidize East Germany. At the same time, East Germans feels insulted by condescension; suddenly, they are the burden without any real value. People need their pride -- so they try to come with reasons why they are better their Western brethren. In many ways, the attitudes were easier when Berlin wall was still up -- everyone wanted to be unified.

3. Soviet memorabilia. In some places, it is collected with obvious humor. When I visited St. Petersburg a couple of years ago, I went to a very hip restaurant that was decorated with old Soviet posters and the like. The clientele of the restaurant is generally very young, and has little recollection of the Soviet days. They are totally NOT nostalfic; I guess the closest comparison I can site with US culture would be a hip joint putting up 50's style posters.

soogar · Apr 23, 2004

Bijoux,
Katarina Witt is a favorite skater of mine. I also think that she is liked in the US and abroad. I think the reason she is not on too many people's top skater lists is that a lot of people are younger and have not seen her compete in her prime at Worlds and Olympics. Also Katarina Witt has been eclipsed by the jumpers of today. Still I think a lot of fans respect her ability to compete and her mental toughness.

While Kat loves the spotlight, she acknowledges that if it weren't for the East German sports machine, she wouldn't have had the success. I think that she took a lot of flack in Germany with her comments on East Germany b/c she never really denounced the regime.

Maybe the Russian skaters feel nostolgia for the old regime because of the support athletics received under the old regime. Now the Russians can't even field the quality of ice dance and pairs teams it used to under the old regime.

hockeyfan228 · Apr 23, 2004

soogar said:
While Kat loves the spotlight, she acknowledges that if it weren't for the East German sports machine, she wouldn't have had the success.

Similarly Moskvina said she wouldn't have become a skater if she had grown up in the West, because her parents couldn't have afforded it.

Lynn226 · Apr 23, 2004

DORISPULASKI said:
I think the nostalgia thing is just normal:
Just in the US how many of the following have you seen?

Confederate flags
Texas Lone Star Flags, from Republic of Texas days
13 star and Don't Tread on Me flags from the Revolution
Nazi helmets, swastikas and such on motorcyclists

I grew up in KY and confederate flags are quite common still in many parts of the South or near South. Mostly, you see them on pickup trucks as decals or as license plates (in KY you only have to have a license plate on the back of your car).

I remember 13 star flags being popular when I was young. Of course, I remember 1976 very well when we celebrated our 200th anniversary.

BronzeisGolden · Apr 23, 2004

This is a great thread topic. Especially since it mixes my two favorite topics in the world: skating and Russian history. As Ptichka mentioned, the old system was reliable because it did provide for everyone...even if it provided at a much lower overall level in regards to standard of living. People could be certain of things. They might never be wealthy, but at least they wouldn't be living in a U-Haul box in the Nevsky Prospect. I can't imagine what it must be like to have all of these new "freedoms" thrust upon you so suddenly. The entire structure of your world is changed over night! These fledgling nations are free now, but they are struggling and things are still so uncertain for many. I don't blame them for being a bit nostalgic. It reminds me of the early 90s when two events combined to produce another strange wave of unexpected nostalgia (although I don't know how widespread it was): the Soviet system collapsing and the discovery of Nicholas II and his family's grave outside of Ekaterinburg. Suddenly people were curious about Russia's Tsarist past (though perhaps in part this was due to the fact that record of it had been all but erased due to censorship, etc.). How strange it was to see people proudly carrying posters of a man that had once been considered one of Russia's greatest failures! From what I've read and seen, it seems this wave of nostalgia is definitely over...but it is still interesting because it shows that people are often driven to look back into the past. It is so easy sometimes to romanticize the past when the present is so dreary and unpromising.

Bijoux · Apr 23, 2004

soogar

I like Katerina's skating. She was unbeatable. I think she might be doing the show in part to keep up with the younger crowd, stay relevant in Germany after her skating career seems to have mostly ended. I didn't admire her for doing playboy, but she certainly is still a beautiful woman. Subject for another thread, but I wish I had a lot of the 80's skaters on tape. I certainly have 'nostagia' for those competitions. I'd love to see her 1984 skate against Roz. I can't remember it now.

BronzeisGolden · Apr 23, 2004

Katarina in Sarajevo

I thought Katarina's Olympic LP in 1984 was one of her best. She was so clean and energetic, there was just a "fresh" quality to her skating at that point. I still don't understand how it came down to a 5/4 decision. Rosalynn definitely deserved silver, but she downgraded 2-3 jumps to doubles and singles. They were too close presentation wise, it really came down to a jump count for me. Katarina had the clear advantage.

soogar · Apr 23, 2004

Katarina's Olympic program was fantastic from 1984, however her Where have All the Flowers Gone was amazing. I rarely get chills up my spine watching a program and considering all the horrible programs in the 1994 Olympics, Katarina's program stood out from her humming in the beginning of the soundtrack to her presentation. I was disappointed that she had some trouble on her jumps b/c I think that program should have gotten the bronze medal. Actually, I think that even with the mistakes it was better than Chen Lu's program.

I wish ABC had included Kat's 1984 program in its entirety on its Magic Memories on Ice. I also liked Katarina's 1987 Worlds program as well which was probably the best she had ever skated in competition.

Ptichka · Apr 24, 2004

BronzeisGolden said:
How strange it was to see people proudly carrying posters of a man that had once been considered one of Russia's greatest failures! .

In a funny way, he can now be considered an even bigger failure than in the Soviet days. It was largely due to his idiotic policies that the Revolution took place. Nothing drives me crazier than the films that protray what a sweer husband and wonderful father he was. WHO CARES!!! He was a leader of one of the biggest nations in the world, and he failed. Which, of course, does not take away from the horror and injustice of how his family was murdered.

United/Divided

berthes ghost

Ravyn Rant

Totally 80s Dance Party!

soogar

sk8m8

JonnyCoop

Longhornliz

berthes ghost

Bijoux

Match Penalty

berthes ghost

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Ximena

Ptichka

Forum translator

soogar

hockeyfan228

Lynn226

BronzeisGolden

Bijoux

Match Penalty

BronzeisGolden

soogar

Ptichka

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