2014 Skate America FD 10/25

bramweld · Oct 29, 2014

Matt K said:
I believe it is because C/L did not participate at Skate America. Hence, no one is talking about them in this thread.

I like some things of C/L's new FD this year and not like other things in the program, but overall I like it more than the crud program of last year. This new FD is not as bad as I expected from Zoueva. Well, maybe over time it will be. But it is better than last year's. Anything is an improvement from last year's.

Shibutanis need to work on their skating skills. They do not have powerful deep edges and absolutely no amplitude in their skating. No one should ever compare them to V/M. Also, they skate so far apart, and it has not improved, even after Maia has grown. Also, their lack of interpretation skills is troubling. Deficiency in skating skills and interpretation skills is a recipe for disaster. Since they aren't outstanding technicians or dancers, they should just take the C/B route. They should go to Shpilband. Zoueva can package and hide her skaters flaws very well too, but she has her hands full right now with so many other teams.

The truth is that Zueva is not a coach. She is a choreographer. There is only so much that a choreographer can hide in the face of COP. The Shibs needed to have gone with Igor. Great technical skills are the foundation of great artistry. V/M and D/W already had that so their need of Igor was less, although I think V/M would have benefited if Igor stayed. Maia and Alex's skills took a nose dive when Igor left, they had better start to draw the right conclusions.

Looking forward to CoC!

Astrid56 · Oct 29, 2014

Tallorder said:
The "conspiracy" which was mentioned in the SD thread (and slammed back by various posters including a moderator) derives from the known close personal, professional and financial ties of the technical specialist and assistant technical specialist with Shpilband. The reference points are obvious and well known enough regarding both that more than one complaint was filed by federations actually before the competition, but the ISU, who had already committed to both men on their roles for this event. Their respective close US geographic base (and thus lower travel costs for the ISU and host) likely influenced their original selection, but honestly more ethical people would have recused themselves. Galit Chait for instance is a qualified technical specialist, but she always recused herself from "calling" Grand Prix and other major events while she was coaching senior international competitive skaters.

It is not a question of whether the people are deliberately doing something wrong. They are going to be influenced by various factors that are difficult to predict or prove. It just looks so obviously inappropriate. And for the athletes, all of whom know this is happening, it has to be very disheartening.

The person they complained about is not even a judge and how much influence_ as an assistant technical specialist _ could he have to the judges? There were 9 judges in this competition, 6 of 9 rated C/B higher, one - neutral and 2 went with Shibs. Also, the fact that the Shibs had not improved considerably_ scoring-wise; and the fact that C/B obviously skated much better in this competition despite Madison's stumbles (which were not so glaring as to impact the over-all look of their performance) _ I'd say this competition would still have been theirs (C/B's) to lose. In Nebelhorn , they lost to a top-ranked pair overall but it should be noted that they outskated the pair in FD.

Astrid56 · Oct 29, 2014

bramweld said:
The truth is that Zueva is not a coach. She is a choreographer. There is only so much that a choreographer can hide in the face of COP. The Shibs needed to have gone with Igor. Great technical skills are the foundation of great artistry. V/M and D/W already had that so their need of Igor was less, although I think V/M would have benefited if Igor stayed. Maia and Alex's skills took a nose dive when Igor left, they had better start to draw the right conclusions.

Looking forward to CoC!

That's true, Zueva is not a coach and I agree that if V/M had gone with Igor, they could have benefited greatly from his coaching. V/M had retained their artistry but lost ground technically under different set-up. So did the Shibs_ still nice to watch but definitely regressed technically. I'd like to say that Tanith's comment about C/B being the fastest said much (in fact, Tanith made a comment about Madison's stumble in FD that it should not impact tremendously the scoring/level and she should know whereof she spoke). Meryl when asked about the performances of the teams purposely didn't say anything instead made inane remarks about future exciting performances because of tremendous talent. When the commentators were asked to rank the teams, guess who they listed first - C/B. Surely that must count for something given they knew the discipline firsthand.

bramweld · Oct 29, 2014

Astrid56 said:
That's true, Zueva is not a coach and I agree that if V/M had gone with Igor, they could have benefited greatly from his coaching. V/M had retained their artistry but lost ground technically under different set-up. So did the Shibs_ still nice to watch but definitely regressed technically. I'd like to say that Tanith's comment about C/B being the fastest said much (in fact, Tanith made a comment about Madison's stumble in FD that it should not impact tremendously the scoring/level and she should know whereof she spoke). Meryl when asked about the performances of the teams purposely didn't say anything instead made inane remarks about future exciting performances because of tremendous talent. When the commentators were asked to rank the teams, guess who they listed first - C/B. Surely that must count for something given they knew the discipline firsthand.

Precisely. The Shibs have been working hard for at least three to four seasons and they are still nowhere where they used to be with Igor. C/B by comparison have blossomed with him, after madam Zueva gave Igor the heave-ho. Man, Igor must be grinning form ear to ear now.

Barb · Oct 29, 2014

But which is the option for Shibs?, apparently they didn't finish in good terms with Igor and they dont seem want to leave Michigan Univ.
And if Igor is so good why Anna and Luca left him?

Astrid56 · Oct 29, 2014

chapis said:
But which is the option for Shibs?, apparently they didn't finish in good terms with Igor and they dont seem want to leave Michigan Univ.
And if Igor is so good why Anna and Luca left him?

What did Cappellini and Lanotte say on this coaching change:

We felt like we needed to challenge ourselves with more demanding choreographies, and we've always admired the beauty and sophistication of Marina's work. It was a wonderful experience reaching into the meaning of the music and the composer's soul. We hope we'll be able to portray what she taught us in all of our performances.

After they thrived, technically, under Igor's watchful eyes, I suppose, they are now ready to explore their artistic sides. I hope they will not suffer the fate of Belbin-Agosto when they switched coach a year or so before the Olympics. V&M did ....

slider11 · Oct 29, 2014

I don't get it...Virtue and Moir did not switch and came in second. So, although I'm not one of them, don't some say that not switching coaches hurt them? I would agree that if the Shibs can't get out of the 90's rut, that it's time to quit or switch. Something's not right. I'm not seeing the major technical deficiencies in the Shibs skating but I will be looking at the Cup of China to see if I see these lack of deep edges, far apart skating and lack of artistry. Their style is definitely not that mouth-open-look- half -crazed demeanor that the Russian made famous many years ago. I'm a huge Davis and White fan but sometimes I thought, tone it down, Meryl! I try to learn from these discussions.

Astrid56 · Oct 29, 2014

V&M are such excellent skaters but if you look at their history, they started losing steam after the departure of Igor (June 5, 2012). Check this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessa_Virtue _ 2011-12 they won 2 out of 3 major events that had D&W as competitors but the following season _ 2012-2013, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meryl_Davis they placed 2nd to their major rivals. Also, their skating speed sort of suffered although they still had those great deep edges. But, of course, one could say that Tessa's injury could have negatively impacted their competitive edge. Well, who knows? As for the Shibs, they produced great shapes and movements on the ice but it's just that _they don't show relatable passion ... organic artistry that make their performance a real standout. Some say because of their sibling relationship, they are unable to emote properly. Hmmm, the Duschenays did not have that problem; ditto with the Kerrs.

rosacotton · Oct 30, 2014

No shocker that Chock and Bates seem set to become the new US champions. But I am surprised by the big push they're getting to continue that long tradition of winning World medals in ice dance. After Worlds in Japan, I was thinking it would take a few seasons before the US got back on the podium. But after C/B's performances here and at Nebelhorn...

sisinka · Oct 30, 2014

humbaba said:
I studied biomechanics in college and worked for a time in a biomechanics lab. I might be able to add something to this discussion. While working in the lab, I digitized hundreds of films of elite level athletes. I reviewed the computer analysis of the digitized data and organized and typed up the recommendations the biomechanics professor sent to the athlete and his or her coaches. Most of the work I did involved world class track and field athletes. The track athletes were all trying to increase their horizontal velocity, because that's how one wins races. When you talk about speed across the ice, you're talking about horizontal velocity. It was a given that sprinters, distance runners and hurdlers all had to work on minimizing the time spent airborne during their stride. More time in the air correlated to slower race times.

......

Hope I haven't been too pedantic. I promise to never write a post this long again.

You are welcome.
I would never be able to make such scientific post. It was great.

We are all wrong when we try to apply situation “off the ice“ (like running) into the ice.

Using the same rapidness of leg’s movements…
1) while walking you can’t loose speed…
2) while running you can’t loose speed…
3) while skating you CAN LOOSE SPEED…because the ability of acceleration depends on edges also.

While you need strong muscles and dynamics to run fast, on the ice you need strong muscles and dynamics AND GREAT EDGES to skate fast.

So we can’t take runner who touches the ground with feet versus runner who jump….and say that it is the same like skater doing edge work versus skater hooping. This is wrong.

If you want to apply runner and skater situation, it would be like runner who would run with his normal boots on the ice versus runner who would be hooping on the floor – this would be more appropriate to situation of skater doing edge work versus skater hooping and this would reflect how many speed you can loose doing edge work, if you are poor technician.

The biggest speed on the ice is reached by cross-overs which are far not the most difficult element. I personally don’t know any couple which would be loosing speed doing cross-overs. But because rules are strict, the program must be original, so skaters can’t do cross-overs for whole four minutes. And there is where a problems start. What else else to do then cross-overs not to loose speed so desperately.

sisinka · Oct 30, 2014

MFarone said:
Can someone explain what Anastasia/Colin need to improve to score higher. Remember, I don't know a lot about ice dance so please keep it simple.

I was watching free dance only.

It is not easy to say what are judges criteria, but as to skating…
…they need better edges, many of them are not cleanly recognizable…
…better knee work…especially when they are getting tired – in the last part of the dance they had almost no knee action…

I think that a lady should be always very elegant, no matter what is she doing… Anastasia’s arm moves are not elegant. I would also improve head posture of both.

From my personal feeling as to presentation…it was not bad at all, but Dance Macabre is very strong and demonic music and the couple’s expression was not that strong, it was rather pale in some moments. I found very powerfull the ending move – choreographic spin – where Anastasia’s leg moves were really in style of Dance Macabre music…if the couple would be able to produce more dynamic moves during the dance like they did in final moves, it would help in presentation a lot.

I also had a feeling more times that during the dance Anastasia and Colin don’t react at each other, like they would be two people and not one couple skating together. But this may be seen differently from different viewers.

Twizzles were not OK (but it was very difficult to execute them at the end of program), they didn’t keep free leg position for full four rotations plus Anastasia was in trouble during second Set (she did Piruettes there which means one Level lower), but they got Level 3 – they should get Level 2.

sisinka · Oct 30, 2014

slider11 said:
Can someone help me - what is the difference in the role of the technical controller over the technical specialist? Do they do "their thing" independently or confer on ratings?

http://www.isu.org/en/synchronized-skating/isu-judging-system/introduction

Technical Panel

The Technical Panel is composed of the Technical Controller, the Technical Specialist and the Assistant Technical Specialist, each one from different ISU Members (countries). A Data Operator assists them for recording purposes. An instantaneous slow-motion video replay system operated by a Replay Operator supports the Technical Panel in the identification of the performed elements.

The Technical Specialist, assisted by the Assistant Technical Specialist, identifies and calls the performed elements and the specific Levels of Difficulty of certain performed elements (e.g Line, Moves in the Field, Circle Step Sequence). He/She identifies illegal or additional elements and falls.

The Technical Controller authorizes or corrects all calls, supervises the Data Operator and can propose corrections, if necessary.
In case of disagreement, the majority among the three Officials prevails.

MFarone · Oct 30, 2014

Skate America FD - Anastasia/Colin

sisinka said:
I was watching free dance only.

It is not easy to say what are judges criteria, but as to skating…
…they need better edges, many of them are not cleanly recognizable…
…better knee work…especially when they are getting tired – in the last part of the dance they had almost no knee action…

I think that a lady should be always very elegant, no matter what is she doing… Anastasia’s arm moves are not elegant. I would also improve head posture of both.

From my personal feeling as to presentation…it was not bad at all, but Dance Macabre is very strong and demonic music and the couple’s expression was not that strong, it was rather pale in some moments. I found very powerfull the ending move – choreographic spin – where Anastasia’s leg moves were really in style of Dance Macabre music…if the couple would be able to produce more dynamic moves during the dance like they did in final moves, it would help in presentation a lot.

I also had a feeling more times that during the dance Anastasia and Colin don’t react at each other, like they would be two people and not one couple skating together. But this may be seen differently from different viewers.

Twizzles were not OK (but it was very difficult to execute them at the end of program), they didn’t keep free leg position for full four rotations plus Anastasia was in trouble during second Set (she did Piruettes there which means one Level lower), but they got Level 3 – they should get Level 2.

Thanks so much sisinka for replying. I will be watching more closely at their next event.

2014 Skate America FD 10/25

bramweld

Astrid56

Astrid56

bramweld

Barb

Astrid56

slider11

Astrid56

rosacotton

sisinka

sisinka

sisinka

MFarone

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