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Thread: Limiting triples for the ladies

  1. #1
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    Limiting triples for the ladies

    I am beginning to think the only way to stem the flow of injuries that have totaled many females (and males of course) is to go back to the days of limiting triples, ban the quads, and have 1 triple triple.

    The Zayak rule was not such a bad thing. To see these ladies pushing to do what the men do, is to ensure that hardly anyone will have longevity. Tara, NNN, the list is endless around the world. To have many great skaters not getting past 14 in the sport is awful. If we see one good triple lutz instead of a flutz and a lutz, wouldn't the former be better than the latter?

    MK's longevity in the sport is due in great part to not pushing the envelope and thus sparing her body for the future. Tara was done with eligble and SOI at 19 because of her pursuit of the triple triples. We would also see better spins, better basics, better spirals, real laybacks, quality stroking again. Those are just some reasons for wishing and thinking they should turn back the clock a bit. Do we want to see 7 triple jumps and 2 triple triples as the goal for the Turino Gold medalist? For their safety and longevity and true artistry's sake, The ISU should act. Agree or disagree?

  2. #2
    TriGirl Rinkside
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    I've said so before, and still maintain that it's bad for the athletes. I wouldn't even mind increasing the Oly/World Champ eligible age to 18. This would ensure that the ladies are through puberty and their bodies are hopefully strong enough to take the demands of triple jumps. I think the CoP could be effective in maintaining the integrity of the athletic competition while limiting the destructive nature of multiple revolutions by giving points for difficult jump entries and emphasizing footwork, spins, moves in the field, etc. I'd much rather see a well choreographed, mature program that a 15 year old jumping bean going through the movements on ice.

  3. #3
    On Edge Piel's Avatar
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    AGREE!!! How many clean perfprmances do we usually see at worlds even without the 3/3? I think it would be wonderful to see clean programs by at least the final six. Then let the quality of the flow out of the jumps, the edges, MITF,spins, and choreography be the deciding factor. IMO it should be a given that you stand up on all of your jumps. i would much rather see each lady land each of the different jumps one time in a program and do it well with out flutzing and get to spend more practice time on all of the other things that make figure skating so beautiful to watch.

  4. #4
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I'm all for limiting the triples. It would not only be better for the skaters health, but it would also (IMO) be better for the sport. It would be nice if some of the great jumpers would start to focus more on other elements (moves in the field, spins, spirals). IMO it would be much more interesting to watch. The long telegraphs some skaters have before their jumps can really ruin the mood & when they have so many jumps it feels like half the program is dead space (& it's even more jarring when they fall). But it really comes down to whether the ISU agrees w/ any of this & does something about it...

  5. #5
    Custom Title Ogre Mage's Avatar
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    Lets see what happens with CoP. I am hoping that under CoP, others elements will be emphasized just as much. I am also hoping that proper technique will be emphasized on triple jump execution, not just the degree of difficulty.

  6. #6
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    Umm. I'm for limiting the triples *and* quads for both genders, actually. The number of injuries the past few seasons has been alarming, and I have to believe that having to do so many triple and quad jump repetitions in practice has to do with it. But someone has to take a stand, and I certainly don't look to the ISU to take a leadership role in this. :sheesh:
    Unfortunately, the skaters and coaches will continue to push and do "whatever it takes" to win unless limitations of some kind are implemented, and we will continue to see injuries - sometimes career-ending injuries, and at a young age besides. :(

    That may be one thing in favor of the CoP judging system - it seems to de-emphasize the importance of the quads and jump combos and focuses on *skating skills*.

  7. #7
    Busted sarahmistral's Avatar
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    thoughts on the matter

    I think skaters look at the whole jump difficulty issue as a shortcut to the gold medals they covet, as if somehow having that huge a weapon can deliver a knockout blow to the competition and secure victory...as usual, I find myself tempted to compare fs to my other fave sport, tennis; in tennis, though there are NO style points, as there are (or should be ) in skating, one weapon is usually enough to win, but there are many variations on the theme. The weapon could be a huge serve, or killer groundstrokes, or unusual foot speed, or no weak shot and an intelligent game. In skating, however, a winning arsenal can usually be broken down into two components: technical and artistic. The latter being a much trickier value to define and quantify, the former becomes what a young skater with visions of gold in his/her head can most easily wrap his/her mind around. "I can win if I can do all these really hard jumps."


    And so, out of the mouths of babes comes a recipe for career-ending injuries, but few adults who are in the position to do something to stop this seem very keen to do so, in the name of the sport progressing and continuing to dazzle and impress all as the jump revolutions and jump count in combos (just look at CoPs new caveat after Evgeni's loss at GPF: sure, three combos is okay, as long as one of them features *three* jumps!) increase. Perhaps the competitive sport/art of figure skating as a whole (not just one of its components, the one that poses the greatest potential risk to competitors' health) would progress if young skaters were forced to develop quality basic skating skills and an actual signature style to win, rather than taking the paradoxically difficult yet also 'easier' (in the sense that the task at hand is far more tangible and more easily grasped by a 12-year-old than the notion of skating with grace, musicality, emotion, etc) way out by jumping their way to the gold.

    Sarah

  8. #8
    Champion Skater (Vicariously)
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    I agree with what posters have said, it would perhaps be in the best interests of the athletes' long term goals to limit jumping.... but I think that jumps sell.

    The average viewer doesnt know anything about quality of edges, difficulty of various mitf and speed doesnt usually translate through tv broadcasts (can we get a slightly wider angle please, often they even cut off the feet.)

  9. #9
    bugs are smarter than we are bronxgirl's Avatar
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    I wholeheartly agree with upping the agelimit. Maybe it's a function of my getting older, but somehow, watching prepubescent 14 year olds in any sport (be it skating, gymnastics, etc.) lessens their accomplishments in my eye, and removes the grace and beauty, since too many of them are too young to have matured into a true appreciation and understanding of what is required for musicality and "feeling" the music.
    And don't even get me started on the physical risks of the requirements to do these jumps well on the developing body.
    For every Nadia Comanecci in gymnastics, how many others never got to fulfill their potential due to injury. To me gymnastics has only improved with saying to a 13 year old, you can't compete at this level quite yet!
    I think figure skating should be even stricter and return the sport to more of "ladies" figure skating and not "girls". I think that Michelle, Irina, Elena,Arakawa, and even Sasha has shown there is life competively in this sport after 18.

  10. #10
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    Great thread. I definitely support the idea of jump limits, for both women and men. It breaks my heart to see some of the most gifted skaters in the world--Yagudin, Galindo, Lipinski--almost crippled at such a young age. And so many other skaters have had very serious injuries--Plushenko, Goebel, Stojko, Urmanov, Savoie, Nam. The price of being a top-level skater has never been higher, it seems. Something must be done about this, and maybe jump limits are the answer.

    On the ladies side, I'd like to see quads disallowed entirely, and probably triple axels as well. Those jumps are clearly pushing the limits for women's bodies, as evidenced by the fact that only a few women have been able to land either jump. I'd rather disallow quads and triple axels entirely than see young skaters damage their hips trying (and failing) to get these jumps. Triple/triple combinations are the main question mark in my mind--should you allow one or two in the long program? I'd say two for now, but maybe push it down to one if injuries continue to be prevalent.

    On the mens side, I think there is a serious question as to whether quads should be disallowed. Clearly quads are less of a stretch for the men than for the ladies, in that more men have been able to land them. On the other hand, the men have also had more injuries than the ladies, and especially, much more severe injuries. So they are at risk as well. I think my suggestion would be limit quads to one per program. Beyond that I'm not sure. It could be that quad/triple combinations should be disallowed, I don't know.

    As others have said, I think jump limits would not only be good for the skaters, but also good for the sport. It would give skaters an incentive to work on improving their presentation skills and their stroking, edging, and spinning. This would lead to better programs overall (and who knows, maybe bigger audiences for skating).

    The COP is a step in the right direction, but I don't know if it will go far enough. I still think actual jump limits might not be such a bad idea.

    I wonder if it would be worthwhile putting together a petition about this and presenting it to the USFSA and ISU.

  11. #11
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    I disagree about putting limits on triple and quad jumps. First of all , there is no use in banning quad jumps and triple axels in the ladies competition as there is no one who even does them regularly in competition (I don't count what Miki Ando does as regularly). I think that the injuries in ladies skating are resulting from kids rushing to get the triple jumps before they have the technique down pat.

    Also in the men's event, men have been doing triples and triple-triple for years without a glut of injuries. Now that the quad is the staple jump, most of the guys are rushing to get the quad without the proper technique and as a result we are starting to see the same injuries in the men as you see in the ladies.

    The answer isn't to reduce the jumps. I think what the code of points will do is force the skaters to have proper technique in order to be fully credited for the jump. I think that and the emphasis on the other elements will force skaters to assess the risks of doing a jump improperly because they might not receive full credit for the jump.

    As for the injuries in the sport, the fact of life is that skating is a SPORT and everyone gets injured at some time. I think Yevgeny is the only skater out there (besides Tim) who can easily land quad jumps and the jumps don't look forced. Considering Yevgeny has been competing as a senior since he was 14 years old, wear and tear on his knee is going to occur. In contrast, Alexei Yagudin was a great jumper as well but his jumps don't look like they came as easily to him because he doesn't rotate as fast and gets a lot of height to compensate for it. There is no doubt in my mind that he forced a lot of those jumps and as a result, he's suffering from a horrible hip injury.

  12. #12
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    I think this all comes down to how we perceive figure skating as a whole. I, for one, see it as an art first then a sport. But for those who rather it be a sport probably would like to see skating get more and more athletic and phiscally demanding. And as others have said, jumping better than your peers is often an easy "route" to get to the top fast (especially in the lower level competitions). But personally I'd rather see skaters pay attention to choreography and building programs to move skating forward in the artistic department. To me that's more interesting than watching everybody rotate 4 times in the air one after the other.

  13. #13
    average opinionated skate fan
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    In concert with what has been said, perhaps a little "motivation" would work to help what this is really all about.. a decent skate boot.

    Skaters are no different from other atheletes, they want to do what hasn't been done before or establish themselves at the top of the game.

    If it is clearly understood that there would be a "moratoreum" on 6-7 jump programs (moretoreum with one 3X3 combo allowed and 3 other triples for a total of 5 in a program for the ladies, and perhaps one more triple for the men), then perhaps skaters, coaches, and skating federations would DEMAND a better boot to protect the skaters and help reduce injury so that, in time, these feats can be acomplished without the same high risks that exist with the boots as they are now. Until then, if the same course of action is persued (ie. nothing), we are going to see the same kinds of injuries and problems that still exist.

    To draw on the tennis analogy, there have been many younger players that have sustained career ending injuries in the past due to a lot of things, but mostly inappropriate conditioning (over doing it) and inferior equiptment (think both Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger, to name just a few.) After the tennis community accepted oversized raquets and began strength training, injuries of many kinds begin to disappear from the circuit. Torn ACL's are just a fact of many kinds of sports, but when's the last time you heard a tennis pro talk about shin splints or tennis elbow? By changing the equiptment to larger raquets and understanding sports training, tennis has advanced and players have other problems to face...one being, just like figure skating, how to reinvent its advertising appeal to draw more fans and make more money. Unlike FS, Tennis doesn't have "Speedy, corrupt judges and xenophobic judging with which to deal.

    Let's hope that some voice of sanity emerges to save all the world's figure skating talent from, well mostly, itself and those associated with them
    Last edited by sk8m8; 04-26-2004 at 02:09 PM.

  14. #14
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Bring back the figures! That would add some difficulty to the ladies discipline.

  15. #15
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    Excellent ideas.....1. Limit triple jumps and quads 2. Raise the age limit for seniors to 18 years for both males and females 3. Seek improving the skating boot and possibly the blade 4. Bring back figures and incorporate them into the total score for a performance..........42

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