Should eligible age for senior women be 18?

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 8, 2014

It seems that almost every year we see a 15 or 16 year old take the sport by storm and then struggle mightily the next couple of years with the technique that allowed them to do all the triples with a prepubescent body. I wonder if it would be better for the ladies event to feature skaters whose bodies are done growing so that the focus in the early teen years is to develop the ability to jump big instead of rotate fast. Julia's jumps already look troublesome, and I think she still has more growing to do.

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 8, 2014

I started a thread on this very subject a few months ago, and all I got was one, very angry, reply.

So, good luck with this attempt to spark the discussion!

CaroLiza_fan

viennaskater · Nov 8, 2014

I think it should be 18. One should also take into account the mental pressure which can be too much to handle for someone in their early teens. Also, I personally do not want to see a little girl out there on the ice during a SENIOR competition.

centerpt1 · Nov 8, 2014

viennaskater said:
I personally do not want to see a little girl out there on the ice during a SENIOR competition.

Agree- but age 17 or 16 1/2 might be more practical.

In any Sr event, 14 or 15 is too young

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 8, 2014

viennaskater said:
Also, I personally do not want to see a little girl out there on the ice during a SENIOR competition.

It isn't that I mind young skaters. I enjoyed Julia and Elena last year. It's just that these girls can win everything at 15 and then lose most of their hard jumps the next year. It's bad for the sport if there aren't skaters who can maintain success for more than a year or two. The scoring system doesn't exactly discourage poor jump technique either, because plenty of skaters can get +2 on a jump with little height if they complete the rotation and do a step before the jump or some move on the exit.

noskates · Nov 8, 2014

I have to agree. I think it's like in gymnastics. These little girls move too fast and it takes its toll on their bodies. Not to mention what the pressure does to them. I would like to see them stay in Juniors until they're at least 17 years old. By then their bodies have matured and they're stronger in every way. I also think they would have a chance to correct poor technique (hopefully) and really be ready for senior competition. This probably won't be a popular opinion.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 8, 2014

It will be interesting to see how the next few years unfold. Four skaters dominated the period from 2007-2014 (Yuna, Mao, Miki, Caro) and all began competing as novices/juniors under 6.0. With them out of the picture, we have the first generation of skaters who will take the top spots at international events who have competed only under COP. There's no one I have seen this season that I feel has solid enough technique to dominate, and I am worried that the next few years we will see a rotating group of 15-16 year olds on the World podiums who won't even make their world team a few years later. If Julia skates the rest of the season like she did today she won't make the Russian squad, despite being an OGM and WSM less than a year ago.

NaVi · Nov 8, 2014

The ideal starting senior age would be the starting age that promotes senior career longevity and I'm guessing this age would be 16 or 17.

That being said, I think Yulia's problems are mental not physical. It's an issue of proper preparation. She doesn't even have her LP dress done yet.

louisa05 · Nov 8, 2014

I think that at least going to 16 as in gymnastics would be good. And age restrictions should be across the board--if the age for Worlds is 15 or 16, no 12 year olds in seniors at Nationals.

Scout · Nov 8, 2014

louisa05 said:
I think that at least going to 16 as in gymnastics would be good. And age restrictions should be across the board--if the age for Worlds is 15 or 16, no 12 year olds in seniors at Nationals.

Am I the only one who disagrees?

I think senior level competition should be about the sport's elite - the best there is, regardless of age. "Senior" to me means the highest level, not an attained age. It would be wierd to call someone a National or World champion, when there are better athletes that aren't allowed to compete. I actually don't like age restrictions; if it were up to me, there wouldn't be any. At the very least, there wouldn't be any need to falsify ages.

Julia has Olympic gold and world silver - increasing the age restriction would be denying her those, with no guarantee that she'll get them in the future. Maybe Mao was denied her Olympic Gold when she wasn't allowed to compete in 2006?

As for the mental state, pressure will always exist, and I think that younger ones feel it less. I remember when Tara Lipinski competed, the commentators would sometimes stated that she was so young, she didn't know what pressure was. I'm sure she felt nervous, but she handled it brilliantly. The Russians -regardless of age- handled the pressure of the Sochi Olympics brilliantly as well.

lavender · Nov 8, 2014

I think it should be 17-18. I remember when it was more of a leveled playing field of ladies skating.

Barb · Nov 8, 2014

If they do this everyone will be following more juniors than seniors and that would be sad.

MalAssada · Nov 8, 2014

This is tricky. IMO the best skaters should be allowed to compete, but when it comes to a 14/15 year old I can't help but imagine what kind of training they have endured to achieve such results at a young age.

For marketing (something FS needs) it would be better to allow the top skaters to compete, because no one wants to see old skaters making a splatfest while brilliant teens are left out. For example, think about Lipnitskaya last year. She was amazing! Were the eligible age 16, or 18, we would have to wait until 2018 to watch her programs in the Olympics, and until there we don't know how her conditions are going to be.

Now, for a skater's health, yeah, maybe they could wait a little before becoming seniors. YET, it's not as if they waited until they are 15 to learn 3Lz3T combos. Heck, Gubanova is 11 and landing them! That's not about eligibility, that's about pushing skaters when they are (probably) too young for the tricks they perform.

Reading CaroLiza_fan's thread, though, I have to agree with him* that when it comes to Juniors, the gap between 13 years old skaters and 19 years old skaters is too big. I, for once, think that if a skater hasn't peaked at age 17/18, this peak isn't going to hapen. I'd much rather see a Junior competition between 13-17 years old skaters where the point requirements are higher than such an age gap and splatfests (if you look at JGP, for example, you may be lucky and see 5 talented skaters among 30).

So, I don't know. I think that age requirements are keeping many young skaters from competing, which are bad for the marketing of the sport (casual fans will enjoy watching young skaters nailing programs than old skaters bombing theirs, I imagine) aren't really stopping them from getting hurt or skating bad programs. At least the way it is now, some skaters have a chance to shine even if it's for a year or two.

Mathman · Nov 8, 2014

chapis said:
If they do this everyone will be following more juniors than seniors and that would be sad.

That's a good point. If little girls can skate better than grown women -- as in gymnastics, for instance -- well… I suppose some people would rather watch the little jumping beans.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 8, 2014

chapis said:
If they do this everyone will be following more juniors than seniors and that would be sad.

Not necessarily. The juniors have gotten TES scores comparable to Mao and Caro for several years.

centerpt1 · Nov 8, 2014

AS a fan- I don't enjoy watching 14 y/o's in Seniors no matter how great they jump. When I watch a Sr lady, I want to see a polished senior lady- not a tiny skinny jumping bean.

I wonder if any studies have been done on what fans want to see in FS.

Barb · Nov 8, 2014

centerpt1 said:
AS a fan- I don't enjoy watching 14 y/o's in Seniors no matter how great they jump. When I watch a Sr lady, I want to see a polished senior lady- not a tiny skinny jumping bean.

I wonder if any studies have been done on what fans want to see in FS.

But the thread says 18 yo. 14 is very young but 16 is ok. Remember 16 Mao, Yuna, Michelle, if there are someone like them in juniors I definitly prefer it.

Scout · Nov 8, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
Not necessarily. The juniors have gotten TES scores comparable to Mao and Caro for several years.

With the age restriction set at 18, the podium for the ladies GP events to date would be:
Cup of China: Kanako, Helgesson, Gao. Gao would have finished 3rd instead of 9th. What a difference!
Skate Canada: Wagner, Hicks, Hongo. Hongo was actually 5th.
Skate America: Gold, Cesario, Nagasu (American sweep!) Nagasu was actually 6th

So really good for American ladies if the hypothetical rule comes into play. But a lot of spots filled with youngsters doing triple-triples would have been filled with much lower ranked skaters. I would watch the seniors to see Wagner, Gold, etc, but I'd definitely want to watch the juniors to see Elena, Julia, Liza, Anna, Satoko, Edmunds,...That's where the clean programs, high technical content, crazy flexible spins will be.

Scout · Nov 8, 2014

centerpt1 said:
I wonder if any studies have been done on what fans want to see in FS.

Interesting point. Should skating be about what the fans want to see (and are we talking casual fans who will rake in $$$ for the networks or hard core fans?)? Or should it be about the athletes, their dreams, and the spirit of sport & competition?

CaroLiza_fan · Nov 8, 2014

bellflower said:
This is tricky. IMO the best skaters should be allowed to compete, but when it comes to a 14/15 year old I can't help but imagine what kind of training they have endured to achieve such results at a young age.

For marketing (something FS needs) it would be better to allow the top skaters to compete, because no one wants to see old skaters making a splatfest while brilliant teens are left out. For example, think about Lipnitskaya last year. She was amazing! Were the eligible age 16, or 18, we would have to wait until 2018 to watch her programs in the Olympics, and until there we don't know how her conditions are going to be.

Now, for a skater's health, yeah, maybe they could wait a little before becoming seniors. YET, it's not as if they waited until they are 15 to learn 3Lz3T combos. Heck, Gubanova is 11 and landing them! That's not about eligibility, that's about pushing skaters when they are (probably) too young for the tricks they perform.

Reading CaroLiza_fan's thread, though, I have to agree with her that when it comes to Juniors, the gap between 13 years old skaters and 19 years old skaters is too big. I, for once, think that if a skater hasn't peaked at age 17/18, this peak isn't going to hapen. I'd much rather see a Junior competition between 13-17 years old skaters where the point requirements are higher than such an age gap and splatfests (if you look at JGP, for example, you may be lucky and see 5 talented skaters among 30).

So, I don't know. I think that age requirements are keeping many young skaters from competing, which are bad for the marketing of the sport (casual fans will enjoy watching young skaters nailing programs than old skaters bombing theirs, I imagine) aren't really stopping them from getting hurt or skating bad programs. At least the way it is now, some skaters have a chance to shine even if it's for a year or two.

bellflower, I think you have hit the nail on the head with pretty much every issue.

In an ideal world, I would support raising the lower age limit for Senior competitions. I don't think it is fair having 14/15 year olds competing against 30 year olds. So, I would probably put it at 17 or 18.

HOWEVER, as bellflower and Scout have pointed out, you want to see the best skaters competing in the same competition. And it is increasingly becoming the case that the optimum age for figure skaters to be at their peak is 15 to 18.

So, that is why I kept 15 as the lower age limit for Senior competitions when making out my table.

As a side issue, but tying in, I do think that there is an argument for a change in nomenclature for the feature competitions.

When you hear the word "Senior", you automatically think "old". For example, in snooker, the World Seniors Championships is for players over the age of 40.

At the Trophée Romand a few weeks ago (GS thread; Entry/Results page), they did not describe the feature competitions as "Senior Level". Instead they described them as "Elite Level".

Now, isn't that a much better, and more accurate, way of describing the skaters competing!

Then the term "Senior Level" could be used for what is currently called "Adult Skating" (I HATE that term!)

Just one final thing, though. I am a "him", not a "her".

CaroLiza_fan

Should eligible age for senior women be 18?

drivingmissdaisy

CaroLiza_fan

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viennaskater

centerpt1

drivingmissdaisy

noskates

drivingmissdaisy

NaVi

louisa05

Scout

lavender

Barb

MalAssada

Mathman

drivingmissdaisy

centerpt1

Barb

Scout

Scout

CaroLiza_fan

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