Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle and Interpretation According to CoP

Last season saw the three Worlds top Ladies skate beautiful presentations. However, one of the components of the presentation score with regard to Interpretation demands that there be an Expression of of the music style and character and another that demands such expression be maintained throughout the entire program.

At their best in Dortmund, the three Ladies did not seem to be conveying any character in their routines. I saw no Turandot or Tosca and no Odette in Swan Lake. Yet the Ladies skated well without such characterizations, and interpreted the music in their own fashion.

Questions: Would this had affected the scores in Dortmund if the CoP had been used (there were many 6,0s)?

Will depicting a character in Presentation be a factor in the socring of Interpretation in future CoP events? or

Is it absolutely essential to convey a character in the program? (Creating a mood will not do).

Joe

It is not neccessary to portray a character of the music, but the character of the music, two different things.

It's still highly subjective, but if you look at the actual criteria, it is clearer. Cohen obviously has the worst Interpration, even if performed well. That program is just choreographed so horribly that any attempt to interpret the music well would be in vain.

IMO, Shizuka is first in interpration, with MK and Sasha in a distant 2nd and 3rd, respectively. Their (MK and Sasha) programs are just too empty. They have almost no choreography, which makes it difficult to accent the music. They stroke and just glide without doing anythat at all, leaving much of the music to waste.

TV

The phrase refers to "expression of the character of the music." I.e., the movement should reflect the nature of the music, the spirit of the music, to use two relevant synonyms.

Remember that not all music is associated with narrative artforms such as opera, ballet, musical theatre, or film that involve fictional or historical characters in the sense of dramatis personae, or the French word "personnage."

If we're thinking in French, the relevant word would be "caractere."

If a skater chooses to skate to an abstract piece of music with no storyline, say a symphony or an instrumental jazz work or folktune not based on a song with lyrics, what kind of relation do you expect between the visual/kinesthetic qualities of skater's movement and the aural qualities of the music?

As far as the rules go, that is exactly as much relation as would be expected from skaters using music from operas, ballets, etc., no more, no less.

You should be able to tell whether the skater is skating to the music throughout (which is what this rule is about) without knowing where the music came from.

Of course, a skater is free to choose to portray a personnage if doing so helps her (or him) relate to the music better or generate specific movement ideas, but there's no requirement to do so.

Good topic, Joe. I do not believe this requirement means that one needs to get into the character, but rather into the character of the music. Irina tried to portray Tosca literally; I doubt this would make her Tosca interpretation better than Michelle's in CoP's eyes. What I understand the interpretation requirement to mean rather is that the whole program should maintain the overall spirit.

A good example is a comparison between Shen & Zhao and Totmianina & Marinin. S&Z skated to Nutcracker. I don't think the actual libretto of the ballet matters. What was spectacular about their program is that they maintained a triumphal character of the music througout. T&M, OTOH, also had a great program. However, when they slowed down it distracted from the character of the music.

Of course, it remains to be seen what the judges think. If indeed it will encourage skaters to do "characters" on ice, this IMO will prove a big CoP failure. I hope this does not happen.

P.S. To anyone who is interested, check out the Protopopovs thread. They talk about the importance of music, and of how music should dictate the choreography.

BTW, this language about "expression of the character of the music" is not new; it has long been listed as one of the criteria for the second mark under the 6.0 system.

What's different with the code of points is that there are descriptions for each criterion (program component) about what qualifies for each score, and separate scores are given for each of the five components, which are divided somewhat differently from the seven or eight presentation criteria under the old system.

Great topic!

I thought that Michelle's The Feeling Begins was textbook as far as "expressing the character of the music." She made me believe that the feeling was beginning, and she kept it up for the whole 2 minutes and 42 seconds. Hey, you can't rush the feeling.

Fumie's short program also captured the spirit of the music, IMO.

But what about a piece like Michelle's Lyra Angelica? The theme of the choreography was "Michelle skaking beautifully." The theme of the music was "heavenly harps." Is that "expressing the character of the music?"

Mathman

I think that "expression of the character of the music" does not necessarily mean "playing the role of a person" even if the music in question has a central fictional character that we would normally associate with the music.

Consider, for instance, Michelle's "Fate of Carmen" SP from 1999. While there were elements of the character Carmen in the piece, Michelle's program was an abstract portrayal of the fate of Carmen, rather than playing Carmen herself as Witt did in 1988. However, Kwan's program did a great job of embodying the music, with many excellent nuances and movements -- notice her arm motions perfectly in time with the drumbeats or the footwork section performed exquisitely to the rythmn. The program was a wonderful expression of the character of the music.

The problem with her current LP was not that it did not portray a person, but that the choreoraphy, IMO, did not "fit" the music. In her Tosca LP there is a brief flute section right after she does her 2axel which I thought would have been perfect for some airy, dance-like MITF steps. Instead she did a spin which did not fit the music at all. In short, while I thought the quality of her moves in the LP was textbook, they often seemed out-of-sync with the music.

Sasha got high marks for "Interpretation" under CoP, but I never saw from her a true interpretation of either the character(s) of Odette/Odile, or of "Swan Lake", which is after all, a drama of lost love. Sasha's skating during the GP was all lovely positions and intricate footwork and spins, but I didn't see any real attempt to interpret or feel the music. I can recall her grinning ear-to-ear during her spiral sequence, which is completely out of character for Odette/Odile or for the music itself. Her Worlds FS was flat and devoid of character and I felt she was simply executing elements one by one with nothing driving the performance.

I just didn't like Kwan's "Tosca" program this season. She skated it well at Nationals and Worlds, and she did interpret the dramatic character of the music, but it wasn't nearly on the level of her 2003 FS.

Incidentally, Irina's "Tosca" interpretation wasn't sustained throughout her FS. Irina has a naturally bubbly personality, and though she clutched her face and pulled at her hair at dramatic places in the music, there were times when she forgot all about staying in character and smiled winningly like the real Irina.

Shizuka did well with "Turandot", but she somehow holds herself back from really getting 'into' her music and pulling the max expression out of it.

The skater who presented the least in terms of interpretation was Mike Ando. "Firebird" is a great piece of music, but there was little Fire, not much Bird, and no drama in her skating.

Ita, chuckm.

I thought Arakawa's characterization of "Turandot" gibed perfectly with the icy Chinese princess. At Worlds, she skated with energy, assurance and great presence. But under CoP in the Grand Prix, she consistently got lower 'Interpretation' scores than Sasha, even in the GPF FS, where Sasha fell twice.

At Worlds, Sasha seemed to be skating in a daze, almost as if her mind was somewhere else. She looked absolutely expressionless throughout her FS. I don't think she would have won the gold medal even if she hadn't made those two mistakes. Her performance was flat, even flatter than her Nationals FS, perhaps made worse by the lack of choreography.

Kwan was intense, as she usually is, and the crowd responded to that. I think the crowd AND Kwan felt a bit of the adrenalin stirred by the intruder.

Yes I agree with the other postings that character doesnt mean an actual role or person or impersonation but just the style of the music, ie TFB from MK which I think she was spot on with the character bit. Brooding, serious and urgent.. I thought it was perfect.

To be honest though, looking at how the judges mark in the COP. they just give similar marks in all categories and you cant blame them because it is difficult and time consuming to break down the previous presentation marks into 5 bits and have to think through all of them and compare each segment with other skaters. Just not possible. I think it's just an overall score they put, plus minus .25 for each category. They might give higher marks under skating skills for those who skate fast, and also notice how transition are always given the lowest among the five for any skater. as for interpretation and choreography I leave it to the most pedantic and obsessive to argue the two out.

The whole point of the Skating Components mark in CoP is to give the skater a mark that represents the sum total of their allover skating abilities apart from the technical difficulty of their individual elements.

The judges should be marking the Skating Components categories according to the criteria for each category, out of a maximum of 10, 10 being the highest degree of skill. They should NOT be comparing one skater to another: there are no ordinals in CoP. The marks of the judges (at least the ones selected) are averaged after the high and low marks are thrown out.

I think what is happening is the judges ARE marking the skaters comparative to one another, and are using the SC categories as a sort of ordinal. That defeats the entire purpose of the CoP.

Look at the Skating Components marks for the top 3 skaters in the GPF FS where Sasha fell twice. Suguri and Arakawa both got higher technical marks. One would think that two falls would affect Skating Skills and Performance/Execution, but that did not happen.


(SS) 7.25-8.75 8.25 (PE) 7.25-8.50 7.90 Total SC: 62.88 FUMIE
(SS) 7.50-8.75 8.25 (PE) 7.25-9.00 7.85 Total SC: 64.24 SASHA
(SS) 6.00-8.25 7.50 (PE) 6.00-8.00 7.50 Total SC: 58.80 SHIZUKA

One can only wonder that if Sasha could get 8s and 9s for SS and PE when she fell twice, would she get 9.75s and 10.00s if she skated cleanly?

So far I've seen no cohesive argument, on why wouldn't Cohen do well under COP if it'll be used at Worlds, after her becoming a "record holder" (among females) in accumulating those points during the season.

Artistic perspective is purely subjective, personally I found Kwan's LP at Worlds to be a lackluster, and wonder if she'd get any 6.0s for that kind of performance, unless judges felt she had to be awarded for an unpleasant incident with a streaker with beefed up marks.

To sum it up: IMO Cohen would have done even better at Worlds with COP (granted of course, that her program would be altered to squeeze as much credit as possible, the way it used to be in the beginning of the season).

Since Sasha won Spring invitational with a clean skate, and without 3/3, it's quite plausible she'd be a gold medalist, if skated like that at Worlds. Come to think of it, even with mistakes she've gotten couple of 1st place ordinals.

registered said:

So far I've seen no cohesive argument, on why wouldn't Cohen do well under COP if it'll be used at Worlds, after her becoming a "record holder" (among females) in accumulating those points during the season.

Artistic perspective is purely subjective, personally I found Kwan's LP at Worlds to be a lackluster, and wonder if she'd get any 6.0s for that kind of performance, unless judges felt she had to be awarded for an unpleasant incident with a streaker with beefed up marks.

To sum it up: IMO Cohen would have done even better at Worlds with COP (granted of course, that her program would be altered to squeeze as much credit as possible, the way it used to be in the beginning of the season).

Since Sasha won Spring invitational with a clean skate, and without 3/3, it's quite plausible she'd be a gold medalist, if skated like that at Worlds. Come to think of it, even with mistakes she've gotten couple of 1st place ordinals.

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Since Michelle has never skated under CoP, how do you know that she won't do as well or better?

Despite the high SC marks in the GPF FS, Sasha still lost to Fumie Suguri because she fell in the SP AND the FS.

Sasha lost Worlds to Arakawa because she botched two jumps in the FS. She also lost those 1st place ordinals to Kwan, who picked up another one from Arakawa. Cohen's FS was dull and lackluster compared to Kwan's, and Kwan got the 6.0s because she deserved them, even though disgruntled Cohen fans say nay.

Worlds 2004 was really the one that got away. How could Sasha win the QR and SP and then blow the FS? Sasha is great at winning cheesefests (except the winter Cheesefest where she fell 3 times) but she just can't close the deal in the major competitions. In the past 3 years, she has been unable to deliver a clean FS at 7 major competitions (3 Nationals, 3 Worlds and SLC).

Sasha didn't have much in the way of competition at the GP this past season. Shizuka Arakawa and Fumie Suguri were her toughest opponents, and Shizuka didn't get much respect from the judges, having finished 8th at 2003 Worlds. World Bronze medalwinner Fumie fared better, beating Sasha decisively at the GPF.

I think this season Shizuka will do a lot better in the Grand Prix. She is now the reigning World Champion, and she has TT in her corner. You can bet her FS will fare a lot better with the judges in the Skating Components marks.

OTOH, Robin Wagner's "Swan Lake" was about a 75% dilution in choreography from TT's "Swan Lake" and contrary to "Registered"'s assertion, would NOT fare well at all under CoP. RW's program is very unbalanced, with all the jumps in the first 3 minutes and all the spins at the end.

bronxgirl said:

Since Michelle has never skated under CoP, how do you know that she won't do as well or better?

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Neither I, nor others made such argument. In fact no one knows how would Michelle fare under the COP.

We do know however that Sasha did exceptionally well with this new system, so I basically responded to the bunch of posts, that claimed otherwise.

Sasha did by far the best under the CoP of any lady skater that has competed under it. She got straight 197s in three tries in the Grand Prix series.

If you look at Sasha's component marks, you certainly have to go along with Euterpe's comment that judges, unused to the new system, are treating it a lot like the old: You decide who you thought was best, then give that person a bunch of high marks. I think this will get better as the judges become more used to the CoP.

Adam London raised an interesting point about how to distinguish between interpretation and choreography. Since this thread asks specifically about Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle, I would have to say that Shizuka had the best choreography per se. This is a credit to her choreographers. What are the judges supposed to do under the CoP if the skater has great choreography but does not execute it very well?

Sasha had a bad free skate, but if you go by her qualifying and short program, that was really just perfect on the presentation side under 6.0 judging. I do not see any reason why Sasha should not rack up the points in the CoP in all presentation categories.

Michelle's strength is the fullness and richness of her movements. When people say she skates from the heart they are not just talking about emotion. They are also talking about starting each movement from the center of her body and letting it ooze out to her fingertips (or something like that). I think judges have always appreciated this aspect of her skating, and given her high presentation marks for it throughout her career.

Basically, I think that both Sasha and Michelle will mop up the ice with everybody else in the component scores under CoP judging. This will give both of them a good chance to medal even without a triple-triple, if they decide to go that route. IMO Sasha (and Mrs. Tarasova) did a great job of studying the CoP rule book and working on maximizing the point total. Michelle and Aruturian can read, too. I think Michelle can win by making sure every element she does is perfect, even if others are doing quads and 3-3-2s.

As for Shizuka, I can't wait to see what Mrs. Tarsova can get out of her. Now that she is world champion, the judges can't overlook her and she should start getting the friendly marks that Michelle and now Sasha sometime benefit from.

I also think Fumie should be included on the short list of competitors who will be able to shine under CoP judging. At Worlds her Free Skate should have been third, IMO, but she was way down in the second group, so she got the short end of the stick under the old judging system. Maybe the CoP would at least have given her the marks she deserved in the Free Skate. Fumie's speed and her unique power-with-gentleness ought to roll up the component points under CoP judging.

Mathman

What are the judges supposed to do under the CoP if the skater has great choreography but does not execute it very well?

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I would guess high marks for choreography but low for performance/execution? Off topic, I thought Miki Ando fell into this category in Dortmund -- she had good choreography but performed it poorly. She did place pretty high -- 4th in her first worlds.

Ogre Mage said:

I would guess high marks for choreography but low for performance/execution? Off topic, I thought Miki Ando fell into this category at this year's worlds -- she had good choreography but performed it poorly. She did place pretty high -- 4th in her first worlds.

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To me, that's kind of a problem. Suppose I go to the world's greatest choreographer. He or she gives me the world's greatest program.

Of course I can't skate a lick. Do I still get 10s for choreography?

Mathman

Mathman said:

To me, that's kind of a problem. Suppose I go to the world's greatest choreographer. He or she gives me the world's greatest program.

Of course I can't skate a lick. Do I still get 10s for choreography?

Mathman

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That does seem a bit odd. But if the judges do their job, while that no-skills skater with a great program might get high marks for choreography, their skating skills, performance/execution, transitions and interpetation marks should still be in the toilet!