Shizuka, Sasha and Michelle and Interpretation According to CoP

shine said:

I think Poykio and Rochette have better presentation than Suguri.

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Possibly, I haven't got copies of their skates to compare right now. And it's true that Fumie telegraphs her jumps at times, though it wasn't so pronounced in her worlds FS.

But still - her focus and musical expression in that skate were amazing. (IMO!)

Speaking of undermarked at Worlds - what about Idora Hegel??
IIRC, she landed a 7 triple clean programme, and ended up nowhere, because the judges were scared to go out on a limb. (IMO). Sure, her presentation was nothing to write home about, but c'mon - 7 triples = 4.9s for tech???



k.

From my point of view of the LPs in Dortmund, Sasha was brilliant in the Quali and SP and then just froze up in the LP and was overmarked for her LP.

Kwan had a very poor Quali, followed by an excellent SP but marred by the overtime, then she gave a first rate LP which unfortuntely could not top Arakawa's technical.

Arakawa was on the entire competitions and deserved her lst, 2nd, and 1st placings in this event.

The sum of the judges scoring was correct, imo.

I also agree with Hockeyfan, that Poykio and Rochette gave outstanding LPs and were undermarked.

I'm hoping some day, that the posters get to see other skaters besides Kwan and Cohen (Arakawa is a new addition) for nitpicking. I personally think, there is a new era in Ladies figure skating coming into being. No surprises for me, if any of the top 3 ever receive gold again. Of course, trying to open the eyes of the judges is another problem.

Joe

Joe ... when you speak of this new era in ladies figure skating, do you include Arakawa in that ... or are you looking further past her?
And is it your thinking that this new group will be established in time for 2006?

And where do you see Kwan and Cohen fitting into the picture?

Thanks
Norma

music's character

Most skaters that pick "theme" music do so to get INTO what the charcter of the music should be---opera, some orchestral tone poems, etc. are programatic pieces of music, that is, they tell a story via words or ideas they convey what the music is saying either by lyrics or a story, such as in ballet. THere are great tone poems such as Don Juan by Richard Strauss that tell a story via the music itself----BUT great music STANDS ALONE, it does NOT need the story to make it come alive----the way the music is written makes it come alive. THe character of the music is determined by the music fundamentals: melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, color, and form---all of these fundamentals and THEIR criteria are what make up the character of music. Phrasing is of the utmost importance and is further defined by the structure of the music----how the themes are formatted to bind all the parts together. One should reflect the style, character of the music by listening carefully to the fundamentals of music and then the phrasing of all parts---GREAT choreography and thus the composition of a program should work from the phrasing of the music with MOVEMENT phrases to further enhance the music----If you have not seen the PBS special with the 4 principal dancers of the ABT theater doing a 7 minute piece by Robert Schumann: a string quintet/piano in c minor, the last movement. WHen you study the score you will find the form by the themes presented to dictate that character of the music by all the fundamentals of music. Mark Morris is the choreographer and reads music, thus has the score as he develops the piece---it is a masterful interpretation of all the themes of the music set with movements that reflect the phrasing of these themes, and thus the character of the music as a result. MOST important in juding ANY contest of music, dance, skating, etc. is the fact that musical phrasing dictates the movement phrases. When you all see the new criteria that has been redone to define much for succinctly the criteria of the components, all of what I am saying will make more sense. Look at the "interpretation" component as it deal with music's character that is dictated by the fundamentals of music and the phrasing of the themes and the music itself----thanks----joe inman

nymkfan51 said:

Joe ... when you speak of this new era in ladies figure skating, do you include Arakawa in that ... or are you looking further past her?
And is it your thinking that this new group will be established in time for 2006?

And where do you see Kwan and Cohen fitting into the picture?

Thanks
Norma

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Kwan and Cohen as well as Arakawa will be contenders for medals in 2006 barring any personal mishaps. I also see them as preventing others from their respective countries to make their mark. It is unfortunate, that so many up and coming skaters from the USA and Japan as well as others in Canada and Europe who do not have something like COI to hone down their presentation skills. But eventually they will and that will be the new era, and if Cohen and Arakawa do not earn the gold then the question arises, should they go for 2010.

Joe

Joe,

It is indeed an honor and thank you so much for your well presented essay on the 'character' of the music. It is refreshing to read that a skater does not have to act out the roles of great heros and heroines literally during their 4 minute routine.

I also agree with your views on Morris. I have seen a number of his ballets and his choreography is defintely well interpeted by the music. Drats! I did not see that PBS special. I am sure he did a good choreographed job on the music but I wonder if the dancers added to or took away from his work. Ballanchine, I amy add also fulfils the criteria for 'character' in music and his phrasings are so intricate and for me, often disarming. And it is intersting to see different dancers take those same very well choreographed steps and bring something individually personal to them.

However, it is not easy to execute 'brio' steps in skating as it is in dancing. the instep of the dancer's foot facilitates the quick movements while the blade of the figure skate limits the 'brio' movements. Choreographing in the style of Morris or Ballanchine
would be a tough go in skating. However, I think there is enough movements in skating for a skating choregrapher to make better use of moves in the field. Choosing the music for a particular skater should be a concern of the choreographer taking into account that which you wrote concerning the fundamentals of the music. the skater too, should take an active part in the choreography of a routine. After all, it is the skater's presentation which is judged and not the choreographer.

BTW, Mr. Inman, I hope we hear from you from time to time on other topics of figure skating. Thanks again.

Joesitz

Wowie Zowie!

Judge Joe on GS with a 6.0 post! Or all 10s in component scores, take your pick. What you said makes great sense just as it is. And like Joesitz, I couldn't agree more re the choreography reflecting muscial phrasing. Back in my dancing days (decades ago, before Mark Morris was Mark Morris, lol), our company worked with many different choreographers, some of whom could read music and most who couldn't. The choreography as a whole wasn't necessarily better or worse based on the choreograher's ability to read music, but it certainly made a difference in terms of the the musical phrasing of the steps. I also agree that there are many, many pieces of music never used in skating that would go beautifully with it. Also, a great choreographer can make music that doesn't seem appropriate for skating to most look great on the right skater.

Speaking of all this choreography and character of the music, though somewhat off topic, I realize most of today's top choreographers in skating have come up as skaters who found they had an interest in choreography and picked things up from anybody they could. But I wonder if the time has come for a more organized approach to teaching choreographic skills for skating. Mark Morris, as do most modern dancers, learned the basics of choreography as part of his craft as a dancer, as well as reading music, though the latter is far less common. Does anyone know if places such as the University of Delaware hold workshops in skating choreography? Do they hold them in Canada or Europe?

The point is, at least in singles LPs, I see so many pieces of skating choreography that follow certain well-known technical layouts--tough jumps early, spin, jumps, spiral, jump, spin, footwork, hopefully a late jump, big combo spin finish. I understand the technical benefits from this kind of layout, but it seems many choreographers fail to take advantage of basic choreographic elements, such as level change, to name just one, and also stick to the above layout whether it's right for the music or not. One of my favorite programs from some years back was Vanessa Gusmeroli's "Legends of the Fall." The thing I loved about it was that it did not follow the standard layout. The most striking thing I remember is the ending. Gusmeroli did five or six different spins in a row for what seemed like the last 30 seconds of the program. I think thought it was brilliant. I think when you're taught the basic elements of choreography, you have a better chance of using your creativity effectively. Also, things like musical phrasing, music visualization, abstraction, etc. can be shared among worksop participants to see how different choreographers solve different choreographic problems or work with different skaters. Sorry for the off topic; it just seems that we expect much more sophisticated choreography for singles and pairs than we did 10 years ago. Also, now it looks like it's going to be part of the score. Just some thoughts.

Thanks again, Mr. Inman. It's great that you read the forums, and even greater that you post! I'm sure everyone reading your posts gives you a standing ovation for doing so. Perhaps other judges will follow your lead.
Rgirl

Kwan and Cohen as well as Arakawa will be contenders for medals in 2006 barring any personal mishaps. I also see them as preventing others from their respective countries to make their mark.

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Off topic, While I agree that Kwan and Cohen are virtual locks for 2006 barring injury, I think that the USFSA is still looking for the "Third Girl." They want to have an world-beating triumvirate like Kwan-Cohen-Hughes or Yamaguchi-Harding-Kerrigan. IMO this third spot is still "open." If some lady can step forward and skate like she belongs in the final flight at Worlds, she could make a big impression in 2006.

A lot can happen in two years, but at the moment I think that Jenny Kirk still has the inside track position for the third U.S. girl. A rejuvenated and newly inspired Ann Patrice could challenge, as could a maturing Bebe Liang . But I think that Jenny is in the same position now as Sasha was a year ago. If she can just stay on her feet for two full programs, she has a chance to medal in any event.

Sasha of course has now developed into a skater who is so far ahead of most of the competition that she can make a mistake here and there and still win.

As for Michelle , if we are talking about the "third U.S. girl," maybe we should be talking about the fourth as well. It would not surprise me at all if Michelle chose not to contest the 2005 world championships or the 2006 Olympics.

In terms of interpreting the character of the music and in making the most of the choreographic opportunities that it offers, IMO Shizuka is still the question mark. As lovely as her performances at Worlds were, I am still looking at the fact that she essentially came out of nowhere this year and then had one great event to win the biggest prize of all. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think she won anything at all last year, not even her own national championship, until her astonishing triumph at Dortmuth. So I think that we need to wait and see. If we are in the business of making predictions about Torino, the Japanese team could very well turn out to be Suguri , Ando and Ota .

Shizuka creamed the competition at worlds, but even so IMO her presentation skills and musical interpretation are still not as polished as Sasha's. Nor can she yet match the consumate control and soul-satisfying depth of expression that still mark Michelle as without peer or rival.

I think that Lori Nichol has the best ear and the most sympathetic heart for music of any active choreographer. It would be so cool if Michelle, come now into the full power of her artistic maturity, could work with Lori again.

Mathman

Mathman said:

As lovely as [Shizuka's] performances at Worlds were, I am still looking at the fact that she essentially came out of nowhere this year and then had one great event to win the biggest prize of all. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think she won anything at all last year, not even her own national championship, until her astonishing triumph at Dortmuth. So I think that we need to wait and see.

Mathman

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As fas as I know, Shizuka has not won any major competitions since she won Japanese Nationals in 1999. Then she dropped off the scene for 2000-02.

I posted at the MKF that it will be interesting to see how Shizuka handles the pressure of being a first-time world champion. The pressure for her may be particularly disorienting because she shot from 8th to 1st in one year. She did not have a "grooming" period where she finished 2-4 and was able to "get used" to being part of the elite. She's now in a place she's never been before -- at the front of the pack with all the other ladies gunning for her back.

Given the nature of skating politics, it would be hard for me to imagine Shizuka being left off the Japanese team unless she has a complete meltdown at 2005 Japanese Nats. Being the WC carries definite weight. She might not win the title, but I believe the judges will keep her on the team.

It was great to see Shizuka skate so well in Dortmund. Since last year I thought she had the potential, but I wasn't sure it would be fulfilled. Her 04 Worlds LP was a courageous, unforgettable moment in ladies skating.

Ogre, Japan has a habit of selecting the world team before Nats even begins. IIRC, Funie and Shizuka's medals at GPF put them on the world team, Nats was really just a battle for the 3rd spot, which went to champ Miki.

Will Shizuka be a Tara* or a Midori**...only time will tell.

*(went from 15th to 1st in one year at worlds. The next season she was either 1st or 2nd in everything she entered.)
**( Won in 89, won SP&LP in 90. Figures gone in 91, she had everything throw at her like in a horror film: Injury, illness, accident, nerves)

Tara is a completely different case than Shizuka. Tara was 13 when she went to her first Worlds in 1996, 14 when she won Worlds '97 in only her second season of international Senior skating.

2004 was Shizuka's 7th season of international Senior skating. Shizuka went to her first Worlds in 1998, when she was 16 (she finished 22nd). She was 8th in 2003, and won Worlds at 22. She has been on the Senior International scene since 1998, skating in four 4CCs and winning two silver medals there.

loverly post, mathman;-)

You're lucky the forum didn't swallow your post for going over the smiley mark--happened to me in my favorite ever skaters post

Michelle's depth and control are really remarkable, but I would rather see her try a collaboration with Sandra Bezic Although her old, better choreographed programs by Lori Nichol would have a wonderful new fire and be tough to beat with her current artistic maturity, and the 3/3s she did in some of them, i.e. the Red Violin.


As for the third US lady, I have three words for you (chanted like the mantra that they are):

YE! BIN! MOK! YE! BIN! MOK! (EVERYBODY NOW!) YE! BIN! MOK!

Though alas, to my chagrin, all those truly "dripping with world-beating talent" ala Ye Bin Mok (and Emanuel Sandhu, in whose honor the phrase was coined), aren't always the most consistent or the luckiest with injury, and those who step up to the plate and manage to be consistent and work to prevent injury (i.e. Jenny Kirk) should, by all means, be rewarded, even if my heart doesn't sing as much when they skate.

YE! BIN! MOK! YE! BIN! MOK! ye...bin...mok...

Sarah

to joe

Joe; thanks for the vote of confidence. I used the Mark Morris example as all the arts performaning and visual can give us insights to how "art" works--it all interrelates, as you know----THE MARK morris example give a true genius of HOW to use musical phrasing to the movements of phrasing which correspond to that musical phrase. It is masterfull when you watch it---I feel it is a Rondo form in the music, and he give a specific movement to each musical section and works the phrases accordingly. Then when the A sections repeats as a the musical performer knows is performance practice to "vary" with some artistic liscense the same idea in the repeat of that idea-----then there is a "fugal" section at the end, plus the coda which is done with corresponding movements to enhance the music by that movement. The reason I want to use this in the ISU schools for understanding and the "hows' of marking the components is that this example from another art form shows clearly how musical phrasing, form, structure basically, the fundamentals, work with movement phrasing and Morris structures the movement to totally EHANCE the music. It is quite something----I analzyed the 4th movement of the piano quintet, that is the music structure, then watched to see HOW the choreogapher brings the music to life with the movement----the structure is so clear and clean to the eyes---one of the new criteria under composition of the program in the new "refined" components--he,he----we have worked hard to define the criteria and PRODUCE a criteria from many people in the art world that translate to skating also---the medium is different because of glide, etc. We still are an Olympic sport in the Olympic movement, thus we HAVE to have the "tricks" which makes it so difficult for our wonderful skaters to push themselves to make the movement fit the music. What I think the system will do in time is MAKE the skater realize that IF they want points, they will have to work on the transitions which make all tricks more difficult as a result of movement phrases working with the music to make the trick even more spectacular, but also more difficult---then this hopefully as seamless as possible movement phrases that work with the musical phrases to make the "art" part come alive-----we are asking for more than ever now in the NJS in the components and you will probably see less 9's then ever before now. In music contest one rarely reaches the highest marks---out of 100 points, to get an 85 is quite something, and that is required in many competitions to win first place, thus why many music competitions do not give a 1st, or even 2nd place sometimes, also ballet competitions---maybe 1 3rds will only be given, as the marks are based on THAT performance, not what they have done before---some winners of major competitions in music do NOT make even the finals of another major competition-----and rightly so---my point is, the COP is defining more succinctly the criteria of what is expected under each component, and yes, do to cultural difference and artistic difference IN these criteria there will be opinions of what is good, average, above average, etc. just as it is in these forums when I read what people think of the "components" of the current skaters---it is a new world out there, and time for us to use more technology to precisely nail the jumps cheats, etc---the eye is ONLY so good----thanks for listening---we have a great sport and we all love to give our opinions---great that we can, as in speed skating which takes much skill, it is done against a clock---we get to have an opinion about all parts, thus all parts should be judged---thanks for your reply to me----and others, also

Mr. Inman, thank you very much for your insights into how CoP will affect musicality of programs. I hope you are correct, and the judges will differentiate between different components.

roundboypete said:

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
The power of Mahler and the subtlety of Bach!
Let the scoffers scoff and the mockers mock,
Ye Bin, Ye Bin'll roll and rock!

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
She talks the talk and she walks the walk!
The door of opportunity hears her knock,
And the skate gods smile on Ye Bin Mok!

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
Her time is a-coming, tick-tock, tick-tock!
Th' Olypic team, yeah, it's a lock
For Ye Bin, Ye Bin, Ye Bin Mok!

Ye...Bin...Mok...

Sh-boom boom.

(Ye Bin Mok, she can't be beat,
Just ask SarahMistral and Roundboy Pete)

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Roundboy Pete, you ROCK!!!!

roundboypete said:

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
The power of Mahler and the subtlety of Bach!
Let the scoffers scoff and the mockers mock,
Ye Bin, Ye Bin'll roll and rock!

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
She talks the talk and she walks the walk!
The door of opportunity hears her knock,
And the skate gods smile on Ye Bin Mok!

Ye Bin Mok! Ye Bin Mok!
Her time is a-coming, tick-tock, tick-tock!
Th' Olypic team, yeah, it's a lock
For Ye Bin, Ye Bin, Ye Bin Mok!

Ye...Bin...Mok...

Sh-boom boom.

(Ye Bin Mok, she can't be beat,
Just ask SarahMistral and Roundboy Pete)

Click to expand...

Roundboypete, I hereby award you a thousand 6.0s for that WONDERFUL cheer I would literally chant it at Nationals if given a minute to do so! You have a creative gift that makes people happy--thank you!!!!!!!!

Sarah

Thank you, Mr. Inman

for the wonderful insights on the development of our sport/art. It is heartening to hear something so positive from someone within the judging ranks, reflecting inside-out knowledge of skating, and your posts certainly address many factors that, if taken into consideration and implemented, would make the sport fairer and encourage performances for the ages at more and more competitions.

It's wonderful to have you here, a true learning experience for those of us passionate about competitive skating.

Best,
Sarah

The character of the music is determined by the music fundamentals: melody, harmony, rhythm, texture, color, and form---all of these fundamentals and THEIR criteria are what make up the character of music. Phrasing is of the utmost importance and is further defined by the structure of the music----how the themes are formatted to bind all the parts together. One should reflect the style, character of the music by listening carefully to the fundamentals of music and then the phrasing of all parts---GREAT choreography and thus the composition of a program should work from the phrasing of the music with MOVEMENT phrases to further enhance the music...

Mark Morris is the choreographer and reads music, thus has the score as he develops the piece---it is a masterful interpretation of all the themes of the music set with movements that reflect the phrasing of these themes, and thus the character of the music as a result...

The Mark Morris example give a true genius of HOW to use musical phrasing to the movements of phrasing which correspond to that musical phrase. It is masterful when you watch it. -- Joe I

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Judge Joe, this brings up the very question that is puzzling me about how the "choreography" component is going to work out in practice under the CoP. It seems to me to be unreasonable to expect the skater herself (or himself) to understand much about how to transform the character of melody, rhythm, texture and the rest into movement on the ice. Especially when we consider that these are mostly teenagers who are tickled to pieces if they can just get through their six jumps without falling down.

So all of this musical advice is really directed to the choreographer, not to the skater. When we praise Mark Morris, we praise Mark Morris, not his dancers -- they are almost the incidental raw material which the choreographer uses to express himself. But in a skating competition we are supposed to be evaluating the performance of the skater.

What I am wondering is this. Will the CoP encourage judges to judge the choreography as a separate component, independent of its execution? Will this increase the stock of the premier choreographers, as skaters realize that they can get a higher component score just by working with an artistic genius? Is there any place for the skater herself to express "musicality," or is she better off just put herself in the hands of a competent pro?

Mathman