Figure Skating governed like tennis: would that work?

legionmx said:

You all realize that there is one basic difference between Tennis and Figure Skating as sports, don't you?

Tennis is a, lets call it, face-to-face confrontation sport. One athlete's abilities are directly and objectively compared to the other athlete's abilities in a straight forward, quick way to decide on-court who is the 'better' of the two (or four) athletes, at least for a given match.

Figure skating is, in itself, a single unit (individual or pair) measure of an athlete's (or pair of) abilities, both technical and interpretative. In a given competition, the competitors results (measures of abilities) are compared numerically to determine a winner. The competitor with the highest measure wins.

There are of course more differences, but that one (confrontational vs. individual) is the biggest and most important one. "Confrontational" sports are way more popular and profitable than individual sports. They create a fan base that can support a given team or athlete in their matches. Winning creates a satisfaction for the fan base, and satisfied fans tend to spend more money

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There is some truth in it, but snowboarding is also "individual" (as you call it) sport. And it is beginning to surpass figure skating in media and public attention now. Even gymnastics is more covered and starts to have more public attention than figure skating. Figure skating appears to be losing at all fronts now. It disappears from TV and media coverage as we speak. And I will remind you that no more than two decades ago figure skating was, behind hockey, probably the most popular winter sport in media. You could say Tonya/Nancy scandal was a contributor to this, but not fully. It was already very popular. The Worlds were covered live on prime time, almost every weekend they were some skating shows on TV. The skaters were celebrities and media were talking about them. Now, besides some hard core fans on this forum (and few others), nobody even pays attention to figure skating. The sport is disintegrating right before our eyes. It is becoming strictly Russia/China/Japan very localized domain. And without support from the rest of the world they will start dying there too. Except Russia maybe. That's the last and most solid stronghold of the sport.

No, I am not comparing figure skating to football, soccer or hockey. I am now comparing it to skiing, gymnastics and snowboarding. And figure skating is losing to them too.

Bottom line, Figure skating as we know it and love it, is not and never will be a sport for the masses.

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It already was. It was in the 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s. I noticed it started to slide down somewhere in the late 90s. I am not sure how and when. I think it was in the late 90s. Opening the Olympics to all skaters in 1994 was a huge chance to the sport, but unfortunately it was completely wasted. I don't remember why the decision was reversed, but I think the decay started after that reversal. ISU shot itself.
Additional factor, I think, has something to do with the total change of the world global culture after the birth of Internet.
I don't know, just guessing. Trying to put things together. Somehow in late 90s figure skating started losing its public appeal. Became a dinosaur incapable to adapt to the changing world.

PS.- You also realize that Grand Slams are not ATP/WTA events, right? They are ITF events.

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Doesn't really matter in the merit of this discussion. And you also realize the points from slams count big time to ATP/WTA ranking, right?

Of course, one of the primary condition to try to regain the past popularity is to separate figure skating from other ISU sports and forming its own union.
Otherwise the sport will enjoy the same popularity as synchronized swimming.

CezarMart said:

... snowboarding is also "individual" (as you call it) sport. And it is beginning to surpass figure skating in media and public attention now. ...

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Snowboarding is perceived as cool.

I think many figure skaters are very cool as individuals, but the sport of figure skating as a whole is not perceived as cool, IMO.

BTW, am I correct that your opinions are based on the the point of view of an American?

I am American too -- but to state the obvious, just because a sport is not popular in the U.S. does not mean that it is not popular elsewhere.
For me, the fact that in this case the universe does not revolve around the U.S. is not some kind of outrage.

golden411 said:

Snowboarding is perceived as cool.

I think many figure skaters are very cool as individuals, but the sport of figure skating as a whole is not perceived as cool, IMO.

BTW, am I correct that your opinions are based on the the point of view of an American?

I am American too -- but to state the obvious, just because a sport is not popular in the U.S. does not mean that it is not popular elsewhere. Sometimes Americans tend to forget that the universe does not resolve around the U.S.

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And I will remind the figure skating was huge in the U.S. no more than two decades ago.
As to the "cool" factor, maybe it's time to try to exploit it. Figure Skating can have it too. It just needs to have an open mind...

And like or not, the U.S. is dominating the popular culture around the world. And sports are part of popular culture. And no, we are not talking about Africa, South America, Australia or Middle East. We are talking about the Northern Hemisphere.
And no, I am not a born American.

CezarMart said:

And I will remind the figure skating was huge in the U.S. no more than two decades ago.
And like or not, the U.S. is dominating the popular culture around the world. And sports are part of popular culture. And no, we are not talking about Africa, South America, Australia or Middle East. We are talking about the Northern Hemisphere.
And no, I am not a born American.

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I edited my wording above before seeing your latest post here.
For me, the fact that in this case the universe does not revolve around the U.S. is not some kind of outrage -- exactly b/c the U.S. is pre-eminent in plenty of other ways.

I don't think the world or the U.S. is going to fall apart b/c the niche sport of figure skating is more popular outside the U.S. YMMV.

CezarMart said:

So curious question: would it be possible to make figure skating work like tennis does: ATP and WTA tours?

First strip the skaters from their nationalities. They are just skaters in open circuit on tour. Going from tourneys to tourneys making money.

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There's the rub. Would such tourneys make any money?

Well for that to happen we need money.
Maybe get sponsorship from a company filled up with oil money (whether that is ethical or not is debatable).

If the ISU can relax a little and stop trying to gain total control over EVERY SINGLE aspect of ice sports, things would be better. Putting all the sport's 'eggs' in one basket is not the best.

This is when the idea of starting a separate figure skating union would be a good idea.

I disagree

CezarMart said:

So curious question: would it be possible to make figure skating work like tennis does: ATP and WTA tours?

First strip the skaters from their nationalities. They are just skaters in open circuit on tour. Going from tourneys to tourneys making money. Make them national federation independent.
Yes, governed by a single body of ISU, just like ATP/WTA. Single rules, single organization.

Skaters would represent themselves only. This would make pairs much much more interesting, as they would be able to form multinational pairs, just like tennis doubles.
Create totally open circuit of touring skaters. Totally open circuit. Remove eligibility vs. illegibility. Everyone is legible.
There would be competitions of different degree giving points and money. Skaters would collect points and form individual rankings under strict ISU umbrella. There would be slams. Grand Prix would be slams! Winning Grand Prix would be much bigger than even winning the Worlds. Who in tennis cares about OG now? Winning a slam is the pinnacle of a career.

Yes, the strict technical rules regulated by single organization (ISU) will have to stay. It's the only way to maintain the integrity of the sport. But there are strict rules in ATP/WTA too.

Would it help revive the dying sport? Would it attract viewers, media and sponsors? Would it bring back life?
Look at the sport. It's dying. I remember times when Grand Prix were televised live on prime time. Now you have to seek obscure channels to watch pre-recorded events. And it's not even HD!
Even the Worlds is leaving prime time. I remember when the Worlds was a major TV event! I remember when Figure Skating was a major sport! What happened???
Why is it dying so quickly?

Look at WTA. WTA has more money now than most sports around the world. It is now one of the most major sports in the world. It shows how opening the sport can bring energy to it!

Very soon figure skating will be limited to three countries: Russia, China and Japan. With some very occasional Canadians. And when limited only to those three countries it will start dying there too. It will become a third grade sport bringing some attention ONLY during Olympics and virtually non-existent in between. Will become another ski jumping or hammer throwing. Even snowboarding is surpassing figure skating now. What really happened?

So would opening figure skating to the totally open circuit help it? Just like in tennis?

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I will re quote a few things that I want to discuss or point out, sorry for the double quoting

Yes, governed by a single body of ISU, just like ATP/WTA. Single rules, single organization.

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The ATP and WTA are representatives of the women's and men's tennis and host specific tournaments together with local tennis clubs. The rule catalogue is defined by the ITF, however specific tournaments have also specific rules that apply.

A good example is the tiebreak - no add - 2 game difference, another the no coaching rule at Slams. The Slams in general but also the Fed Cups are under the belt of the ITF and not the WTA / ATP.

But even between the ATP and WTA we do have different rules that apply, one of the biggest issues so to speak is the price money / 3 winning sets discussion that comes up every year.

Now the question is would this be practicable in FS and what would it mean.


Lets say,

the ISU is like the ITF and we would start with a ladies tour and a men's tour. Would this lead to a separation of both? Would we then also have competitions only for men or women, only for pairs or ice dance?

Once every year we then have the Worlds, Europeans and your pendent to the slams the Grand Prix where everyone is meeting and requires points to enter.

This would lead to several problems in my opinion.

1. OCs

If you talk to those responsible for Figure Skating events not under the ISU then you often hear how much work that is. Lets assume we split the genders as you said, then these Organizers would either do the same event twice or more, or just focus on the most profitable for them.

Light, volunteers, security, the DJ ... its all there, no matter if 50 people skate or 100.

This dilemma could lead to OC´s focusing on only one tournament format, either the men's (highly profitable) or the ladies (without big names not really profitable) or last but not least pairs and ice dance (pretty dead in most countries sadly).

You could now say, "But I didn't want them to separate skaters" and maybe yes you didn't want this, but if you use the tennis sport as an example then this would also apply to FS.

I do know several WTA tournaments in Europe who are close to their finish, as WTA tennis doesn't fill the belly as good as ATP does. We have lost so many traditional tournaments since the late 90s, its depressing.
Everyone wants to see Federer or Murray but unfortunately if you believe it or not, not many want to see Radwanksa or Halep or even the rising star Genie Bouchard.

In FS the same could happen. If there isn't also a men´s competition going on, many would just no longer go. You see this very well at Euros every year, the men's competitions are packet, the ladies struggle a lot especially the first few groups and not every competition will have Line ups with top Russians or American skaters.

Therefore I would be against a separation into leagues.

2. Skaters

I do know and while I don't understand it, I at least respect it that for many fans the "weaker" skaters are more of a burden than a blessing.

However,

if we give the Grand Prix bracket completely to the big names, then girls or boys who skate less good would be left out. Leaving people out is something FS cant afford. Even the "poorest" performance is still a performance, a performance that young girls or boys might see in TV, a performance that might motivate them to also start skating for their country.

I am not sure about America, its been a while for me and after Hughes in 2002 the ice rinks were packet with young competitors whenever I was at a trainings camp. But the truth is, most countries do not have skaters of international level / many talents these days.

One reason is the poor "selling" of the sport, by the ISU in cooperation with TV stations and journalists. While I am probably not in the position to criticize a company that big, I still think many mistakes were made to step up and commercialize the sport in such a way like tennis or soccer were in the late 80s, 90s.

In my opinion, every skater we have is of high value and must be given the chance to skate. Skate also at big events, also across the sea, also in TV and Newspapers.

By excluding skaters or whole nationalities like in tennis, you would do more harm than good to the sport. All the money would go into events for a small amount of athletes, while the rest has to fight for survival every day.

Very talented skaters on the WTA who are not top 100 struggle big time, Camila Giorgi is one name but many juniors fall under that category and those are the future of the sport.

Who in tennis cares about OG now? Winning a slam is the pinnacle of a career.

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Tell this Roger Federer Not having the OG medal in singles is like a black spot on his tennis career, guess why he is still competing after having earned more money than he can ever spent?

I would also disagree with your assumption that an Olympic medal / competition is not important. If you speak to athletes than going to the Olympics once is their biggest goal, guess why so many swap their nationality for this!

The amount of spots are very limited and the qualification rules are extremely tough, we all know how many skaters can go to an Olympic FS competition but how many actually want? Thousands and we have 24 spots!

I can assure you, there are more who would like to have gone to Sochi than to a Grand Prix this year.

Olympic games and this every Olympian says are special. You meet other athletes, you experience the Olympic spirit, everyone is living together, thousands of young people - you just cant compare this to a Slam or Grand prix.

You make more money at a Slam, yes - but for an athlete its not about the money. Traveling to the Olympics coming home with nothing than a "10th" place can mean so much more than a gold at Barcelona.

Would it help revive the dying sport? Would it attract viewers, media and sponsors? Would it bring back life?
Look at the sport. It's dying. I remember times when Grand Prix were televised live on prime time. Now you have to seek obscure channels to watch pre-recorded events. And it's not even HD!
Even the Worlds is leaving prime time. I remember when the Worlds was a major TV event! I remember when Figure Skating was a major sport! What happened???
Why is it dying so quickly?

Look at WTA. WTA has more money now than most sports around the world. It is now one of the most major sports in the world. It shows how opening the sport can bring energy to it!

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You cant help something that is as you said dying, if you cut its arms and legs off. You only speed up the process.

As explained, we need every skater, official, volunteer. Many fans cant even pay the entry to an official ISU event. We are talking about hundreds of Dollars for a poor seat and thousands for a good one. You cant attract people with such a price philosophy.

I also have yet to see how the WTA is what you say it would be. In the years since I do tennis, WTA is ok but not even close to the ATP in regards of sponsoring or TV interest.

Hardly any WTA tournament is broadcasted in TV, maybe a few in pay TV ok I give you that but do you really want to banish Figure Skating to pay TV? Do you really think it can attract people there? I doubt it.

To help FS back to its former glory a lot would need to happen but it must happen in cooperation of all and not on cost of weaker nations or skaters.

Very soon figure skating will be limited to three countries: Russia, China and Japan. With some very occasional Canadians. And when limited only to those three countries it will start dying there too. It will become a third grade sport bringing some attention ONLY during Olympics and virtually non-existent in between. Will become another ski jumping or hammer throwing. Even snowboarding is surpassing figure skating now. What really happened?

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Limited in what regard?

Winning an Olympic GM? Winning a Grand Prix?

I honestly don't like that philosophy that only those matter who win and the rest simply put wasn't even there or is worth to be mentioned. This is the wrong attitude

If you talk to athletes they really hate that philosophy of always winning. An athlete first of all wants to compete, this is what they do.

We have many great skaters, its not only about the Podium its about every single one of them and there we do have many countries involved. Look at the strong scene of Lithuania right now, or the Fins who are coming back slowly and don't forget the Canadians either.

I also have to say that I disagree about what you said in regards of snowboarding. Its a huge scene and this since many years - have you ever been to the X-games? This is always a party of tolerance and respect towards each other with thousands of people coming from all over the world.

Its not all about Shawn White, there is much more and once he retires there will still be Snowboarding.

With all due respect,

you are an American and you speak like an American. Sport however is not only about huge shows like at the super bowl, or in general popular because of TV commercials or half naked women waving their pom poms

As example, Biathlon might be dead for you, however it attracts several thousand people every time in Germany and even fills a soccer stadium once every year.

Women soccer might be dead for you, however we had 45.619 at Wembley this weekend. There is a bit more than just the national scene, and I don't say this to be disrespectful or rude.

I can only repeat what Gracie said,

its not all about the gold.

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Yes we do need some type of fresh air in FS but you simply put need to find a own way for FS and not copy from a totally different sport that as mentioned has also tons of problems right now and isn't as "cool" as you said it would be.

The ISU officials are thinking small but so do many fans. What we need is to think big but this involves also the smaller nations and I assure you, many countries and fans would be grateful if they had a Kaetlyn Osmond or Gracie Gold at their ice rink and TV channels such as CBC or NBC.

golden411 said:

I edited my wording above before seeing your latest post here.
For me, the fact that in this case the universe does not revolve around the U.S. is not some kind of outrage -- exactly b/c the U.S. is pre-eminent in plenty of other ways.

I don't think the world or the U.S. is going to fall apart b/c the niche sport of figure skating is more popular outside the U.S. YMMV.

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This is sort of my feeling. And we have a clear example: Soccer/Football. Yes, Major League Soccer (MLS) has made soccer more popular and accessible to Americans, but if you asked, the majority of people in the U.S. don't know much about soccer.

But prior to the blossoming of MLS, soccer was primarily popular outside the U.S. Sure people would go crazy when World Cup goes around or during the Olympics, but otherwise it doesn't have a lot of exposure here.

I can think of a number of sports that function fine despite being a niche sport. Long distance running comes to mind. Heck, the unique and odd thing about such races is that that elites actually run aside hobby runners, but if you aired the Boston Marathon on broadcast television it probably wouldn't fare any better than figure skating.

Mrs. P said:

This is sort of my feeling. And we have a clear example: Soccer/Football. Yes, Major League Soccer (MLS) has made soccer more popular and accessible to Americans, but if you asked, the majority of people in the U.S. don't know much about soccer.

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Funny that you bring this up.

During the WC in 1994 I will never forgot the Americans next to me. Every time the goal keeper had the ball and kicked it away they shouted

"wow, what a kick"

It was so funny, I am sure they were football fans and totally obsessed about kicking the ball as wide as possible

Thank you Alex for your great post. No, I don't know how to save figure skating in the US, as probably this is the topic of this discussion. And I don't know how much important it is for the entire figure skating to be successful in US. Probably it can be big everywhere else, especially Asia and Russia, but non-existent in US. But there must be something done wrong by the organization that is killing the sport here. And that can affect the sport elsewhere too.

I come from the Eastern Europe and I know the sport is practically dead there. There are just a few of select countries, probably huge investment in China and Japan, that is keeping the sport running.
Anyway, I didn't mean to take everything literally from tennis and apply to figure skating. What I meant is that some big change must happen so that the sport is more than just Olympics and nothing in between. Openning the sport to all skaters, i.e. removing any legibility requirements, removing national constraints, thus allowing multinational couples, adding ranking system and keeping it the foundation for tournament qualifications and seeding, adding more tournaments. Just loose thoughts, I am just throwing ideas.
And most important: reducing interpretative artistic points and focusing more on transparent and easy to judge and follow technical elements. Making the sport more athletic, dramatic and more appealing to the wide public.
And yes, you have to sell it. You have to make big shows out of it. What was working 40 years ago is not working anymore. What was alive then is really old now.
Snowboarding is making big shows out of their events. Learn from it. Bring dramas, personalities, promote showmanship. I don't know how. But things have to change.

I still don't believe that opening the sport and removing nationality will kill smaller countries. I think opposite. Tennis is an example: it is dominated by small Eastern Europen countries. Small and poor Serbia, or equally small Slovakia or Czech Republic are prime examples.

Or maybe figure skating doesn't have to change at all. The hardcore fans will still love it, the average age of audience will climb above 60... and maybe it's OK. The retired people need their own sport too. If this is what you guys need then there is no reason to change anything. But then don't expect much from it either.

CezarMart said:

Thank you Alex for your great post. No, I don't know how to save figure skating in the US, as probably this is the topic of this discussion. And I don't know how much important it is for the entire figure skating to be successful in US. Probably it can be big everywhere else, especially Asia and Russia, but non-existent in US. But there must be something done wrong by the organization that is killing the sport here. And that can affect the sport elsewhere too.

I come from the Eastern Europe and I know the sport is practically dead there. There are just a few of select countries, probably huge investment in China and Japan, that is keeping the sport running.
Anyway, I didn't mean to take everything literally from tennis and apply to figure skating. What I meant is that some big change must happen so that the sport is more than just Olympics and nothing in between. Openning the sport to all skaters, i.e. removing any legibility requirements, removing national constraints, thus allowing multinational couples, adding ranking system and keeping it the foundation for tournament qualifications and seeding, adding more tournaments. Just loose thoughts, I am just throwing ideas.
And most important: reducing interpretative artistic points and focusing more on transparent and easy to judge and follow technical elements. Making the sport more athletic, dramatic and more appealing to the wide public.
And yes, you have to sell it. You have to make big shows out of it. What was working 40 years ago is not working anymore. What was alive then is really old now.
Snowboarding is making big shows out of their events. Learn from it. Bring dramas, personalities, promote showmanship. I don't know how. But things have to change.

I still don't believe that opening the sport and removing nationality will kill smaller countries. I think opposite. Tennis is an example: it is dominated by small Eastern Europen countries. Small and poor Serbia, or equally small Slovakia or Czech Republic are prime examples.

Or maybe figure skating doesn't have to change at all. The hardcore fans will still love it, the average age of audience will climb above 60... and maybe it's OK. The retired people need their own sport too. If this is what you guys need then there is no reason to change anything. But then don't expect much from it either.

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In my opinion,

FS right now loses a lot of potential because of the issues that arise at so many Events in regards of the seating policy. The IOC has the same missed opportunity there, I only want to remember the fact that Handball and Basketball games at London 2012 had huge empty spots while fans of the sport would have sold their grandmother to get a ticket.

It is very hard for me to judge what the ISU or IOC do there, I don't work for any of these two companies but I see and hear how upset people are about paying a lot of money for a ticket with a poor line of sight while several rows directly at the ice rink / play field are empty.

The days are also over when the press was allowed to sit directly at the rink (except at some events like Nebelhorn or NRW), many journalists don't even travel anymore and broadcast or write from home while watching a stream. This of course has a major impact on their work, I honestly couldn't write so passionate about something that I only saw in TV or a stream

A lot that you read online comes from people who were not there this reflects to the fan who gets a half empty article to read and just doesn't experience the event while reading it.

Many people are very passionate about FS, they want to help but the financial problems and the allocation of tickets, accreditations & co. doesn't let them.

Personally I think that the success of a sport always starts at the bottom. Young athletes see someone in TV, they experience an introduction course in kindergarten or they are scouted (that's how it was for me).

From that point on they need a place where they can go to, usually a local club. But these local clubs struggle a lot these days, be it the financial aspect or the human resource.

That said, TV stations that brought sport in free TV 10-20 years ago can not afford to pay the massive amounts of money anymore to get the rights nor do they have the money to send their reporters to Asia, US or Europe all the time.

So we don't only struggle at the local club area but also in the TV broadcasting area, two very important things to attract and give young athletes a chance to start with a sport.


Here I would start,

back in 2002 at Salt Lake Sarah Hughes was everywhere, even on milk bottles. A lot of kids drink milk = kids are interested in who that is, maybe see her skate and e voila you have a new generation coming.

I am not in a position to make a claim where US FS is right now or where it is in many other countries but we need to get the kids interested again in the sport but this also involves giving them a place to practice, help them in school and don't let the parents alone with the financial aspect...

I still don't believe that opening the sport and removing nationality will kill smaller countries. I think opposite. Tennis is an example: it is dominated by small Eastern Europen countries. Small and poor Serbia, or equally small Slovakia or Czech Republic are prime examples.

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I think we need to look at the big picture here. Yes, many good athletes are coming from countries in Europe that are not that rich. However, if we look at Djokovic for example then he was never poor. His parents owned an tennis academy and several restaurants, the parents of Caroline were professional athletes too etc.

What these great athletes did is sadly not possible for everyone, I gave the example of Giorgi but also Dustin Brown is such an example. He actually travelled from tournament to tournament in a caravan.

Being born in a "poor" country does not mean you have no chance, this is correct and I should had put this better especially if you consider that for many young kids sport is the only chance they have, as example Africa & Brazil in soccer. However, I think that a lot of athletes especially women have a very hard time to go on with their sport as older they get. When you are 17-18 then for many great talents the university is the way to go and not the ice rink or tennis court due financial obstacles.


Just look at Germany right now, Ingo Steuer is too expensive for Aljona which is crazy if you think about the fact that she has won so many medals in her career but without support she just cant afford him anymore and I believe there are many skaters around the world who cant even pay the entry fee to the ice rink and this has to change.

Stripping skaters of their nationality is something I have been for many years.

Alex, I was talking about "seeding" skaters, not "seating". It was just a loose thought and probably meant nothing, but it was about "seeding".

As to Djokovic's parents being rich then yes, figure skating and tennis have been, are, and will be, sports for families with enough resources. So figure skating is expensive and probably will stay expensive. I assume in Russia and China there are government-sponsored programs, but everywhere else it is NOT sport for street kids. So yes, figure skating is discriminating underprivileged kids, and unless there is some sponsorship it will stay this way. That's part of the inequalities of the societies, and in the foreseeable future it's not going to change much. But it has nothing to do with discriminating entire nations. In fact, smaller countries perform in sports like this very well. The example is, again, Eastern Europe in tennis.

This may sound like a simplistic view, but I rather think a lot of it comes down to this:

In Western countries, there is a prevailing attitude that any man who partakes in an "artistic" pasttime - skating, dancing, etc - must be gay, and this is somehow a terrible awful thing that we should not want our kids to get involved in.

There is also a particularly stupid idea that involving a boy in such a sport/activity will somehow "make" him gay.

And then add this to the extremely prevalent attitude that gay = "sissy, not tough, not strong, wussy" and voila. End of the line for figure skating in Western countries.

karne said:

This may sound like a simplistic view, but I rather think a lot of it comes down to this:

In Western countries, there is a prevailing attitude that any man who partakes in an "artistic" pasttime - skating, dancing, etc - must be gay, and this is somehow a terrible awful thing that we should not want our kids to get involved in.

There is also a particularly stupid idea that involving a boy in such a sport/activity will somehow "make" him gay.

And then add this to the extremely prevalent attitude that gay = "sissy, not tough, not strong, wussy" and voila. End of the line for figure skating in Western countries.

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In Eastern European (including Russian) culture it's easier for guys to participate in "feminine" activity, like ballet or figure skating, because there are specialized schools for such kids starting at 6 years and going all the way to adulthood. In those environments the boys are within their own subcultures and are not exposed so much to those outside stereotypes you were talking about.
In USA those schools are rare and expensive, or at least here where I live. Those boys still have to go to regular schools and survive the brutality of public teenage jungle. Yes, recently bullying has been reduced significantly and is now perceived as "uncool", but the stereotypes still exist. And it discourages the boys from going after "feminine" activities.

Could it work? Of course it could if skater's access to top competitions were limited based on the performance. In a level such as GP, the first half can usually be a snore when there are skaters who shouldn't be even seeing the light of big competition until they raise their game.

Warwick360 said:

Could it work? Of course it could if skater's access to top competitions were limited based on the performance. In a level such as GP, the first half can usually be a snore when there are skaters who shouldn't be even seeing the light of big competition until they raise their game.

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Yes, some of the results at the GP are terrible, like that Nagasu getting put over Brooklee just because of her nationality...

I'm going to repost another comment of mine elsewhere here... as this is a "how to fix figure skating thread"...

I was going to make this comment earlier, but didn't want the thread to turn into a "how to fix figure skating thread"... but it kind of gone that way a little so...

We need a rule change to allow all these girls to compete at Europeans and Worlds.

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I've thought about this and would have agreed earlier... but now I think it would just lead towards resentment and work against these girls because some people(and media outlets) will tune out if it's always a consistent national shutout... I recently read an interview with the head of the Ukrainian Figure Skating Fed and the local channel that had been carrying figure skating is getting reluctant to cover any events(from nationals to euros to worlds) anymore... (not because of the recent conflict... it's because they don't really have any stars anymore)... and I'm sure this is not an isolated occurrence.

I think the the grand prix should be expanded and made more elite... the "national figure skating season" should be compressed in time... the world championships needs to be more consciously a "tournament of nations"... and an "exhibition" season for the top grand prix skaters should be created. More value(media, money, whatever) needs to be created for skating outside of the "national figure skating" season for elite skaters.

1. Expand the Grand Prix to one or two more events(Skate Europe or Nordic Skate or Skate Germany, Skate Asia or Korea Cup) and let the top 12 or so skaters skate 3 times(if they want) and use their 2 top scores.
1a. If a deal could be signed to bring the Grand Prix Final to american prime time tv, the Grand Prix Final should be held in New York or California or some big media capital every year.
1b. Expand the number of GPF qualifiers for men and women to 8 or 10 and there should rule that ensures at least 3 nations are represented(important to have a little diversity for narrative building reasons... ashley wagner vs the russians... etc).
2. Make the "National Figure Skating" season shorter... All the national figure skating events should be done by the January 1st(most except the US/Canada already do this...) , 4CC/Euros should straddle the mid January weekends, World Championships should be held the 2nd weekend of February, Team World Champions 2 weeks after. The spaced out nature of figure skating hurts it from a media standpoint because it's hard to tell people "come watch next month"... it needs to be 2 weeks at most..
3. Create a 3 event(2 qualifiers and a final) "Gala Grand Prix" where the top skaters from Grand Prix participate in judged "technical exhibitions" in the dark and under the spotlight(and maybe with some lightshow effects)... (most likely these would be previously used competitive programs or exhibitions with the harder elements put in)
3a. Host every event in either the US(Cali, Vegas, New York?) or Japan... or split between Japan/China/Korea.. or split between North America/Europe/Asia... the final needs to be live on prime time US or Japanese TV.

To compare it to basketball, Grand Prix = NBA, World Championships = FIBA, Exhibition Season = Globetrotters...

If those above changes were to bear fruit(and if skaters don't get too tired of the schedule), I'd like to see...
4. 3-day short program elimination tournaments(maybe jsut ladies and guys)... 13->9->5 (or similar) skaters for the 1st,2nd,3rd day ... this would be part of the "exhibition" season and they should be highly encouraged to use old programs.
5. Create more'Japan Open" exhibition warmup events at in the beginning... they should just be fun things to get ready for the season... nations, disciplines, and rulesets should be chosen for parity and to make the competitions interesting. These should not be taken too seriously at all...
** Russia vs US(and maybe Canada on US side if it's always a blow out) "cold war"
** US vs Canada
** China vs Korea vs Japan
** Russia vs Euro All Stars
** Asia All Stars vs Euro All Stars
etc etc

I also think it would be interesting if there were some exhibition style contests held outdoors instead of indoors... maybe the short program elimination tournaments...

I am open to the winners of Euros/4CC getting individual tickets to the World Championships... but only to make the 4CC more interesting(top skaters often skip) and to give the "national skating season' a more tournament feel.

There are those that want to take skating more in a tennis direction, but the way to go there is to get elite skaters skating against each other more often in varied ways. Trying to make the "World Championships" more elite would actually be moving in the wrong direction because instead of a "tournament of nations" it would just be Grand Prix Final 2.0.

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http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...r-like-Cohen&p=1058202&viewfull=1#post1058202

golden411 said:

Killing off figure skating in the U.S. once and for all would be a more likely outcome of this plan, IMO.

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How do you figure that, golden411? If anything I think it would encourage skating in the US. It must be so frustrating for these world class US or Russian skaters who know that with only three at most spots for Worlds and Olys, they are likely not to get to go even though them on their worst day would easily beat the 'token' skaters from noncompetitive countries. If I was a solid fifth in my country yet am ranked in the top twenty in the world, I'd probably have an easier time leaving the sport but if I was competitive internationally and could go as LiamForeman and not as a representative of US I'd stick around.

I think I started the talk a few days ago about tennis. Early in the 00's, the Russian women were all over the top ten. Lindsey Davenport called them all the "Ova's", lol, plus Myskina, Safina etc. It didn't ruin tennis in the smaller countries. They just knew that they had to work harder and pick up their skill set. If the smaller countries want to compete at Worlds, then they can do a wild card like in tennis.

Of course this will never happen. Figure skating is an anachronism, or at least the leaders are. They do things like "it's always been done". Only the new judging system has changed, but that was due to the IOC telling the ISU to fix the judging or you are out of the Olympics. But the mindsets are still old-fashioned. It's a great idea, Manitou.

I guess I am anachronistic, because I am perfectly fine with events where athletes represent countries, such as FS, admitting the athletes by country than performance, even if it prevents "better" skaters from entering competitions.

Track and field also follows this model for international competitions, to the great detriment of track and field powerhouses. Any ten marathoners in Kenya (and Ethiopia) could beat the rest of the world in any given race. And the marathon is cut and dried, unlike FS: you run faster, you win. Kenyan runners four through ten are pretty much shafted and would easily qualify for the national team in any other country (and Kenya is a good example because with so many runners posting world class times, the Kenyan "fed" just picks the Oly team). I do not frequent running boards the way I do FS boards, but no one thinks that making the Olys strictly on times, so that the final would be 25 Kenyans, is a great idea, so they don't do it.

The normal casual fan in America wants to see the American skaters. This should not be a news flash. They want to see Jason Brown and Gracie Gold (and Ashley Wagner and whoever else) in international comps whether or not they are the "best", and are not shedding a tear for the fourth place Japanese man or Russian woman. I find it extraordinarily hard to believe that the casual fan in other countries do not feel the same way. In this respect, at least, figure skating is actually smart.