Outraged at the "handling of Iraqi prisoners" scandal

I trust by now everyone has heard about the reprehensible treatment of Iraqi prisoners by the US soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison. If not, here is a link. I honestly cannot believe this. I could expect something like this from CIA, but NOT from the army. The only ray of sunshine I see in this story is that it came to light when one of the soldiers reported it to his superiors. That someone felt disgusted enough with this to betray a friend is a good sign.

This is an example of what was found: "The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner ... “for intimidation factors.”" One prisoner died. One "male juvenile" was raped.

I also could not believe the following statement from one of the guilty soldiers: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening". What kind of regulations do you need to know that you don't take pictures of yourself with naked prisoners, forcing them to take positions imitating sex!

What frustrates me so much as well is that this gives such wonderful ammunition to the world. I have no doubt that the soldiers who perpetrated this are the exception; probably there were a few real SOBs pushing this, and the rest were just cowards following along with others. Yet this is what the world is going to see and judge us on!

BTW, I do realize that in a war, many things are allowed. I could even excuse the forces using torture in some cases -- basically if they really believe that they can get the information they need immediately. This, however, does not fall into that category. First of all, they were not trying to get any immediate information; second, this seems like just humiliation for the sake of some bastards' enjoyment.

I can't really pretend surprise, Ptichka. Invading armies always rape, torture, maim, etc. That is their nature. Similar things happened in Viet Nam, Korea. It happened when Alexander the Great invaded Persia. Like you say, that's war. War by definition is the breakdown of civilized behavior.

It is better not to start them. It is especially better not to send an invading army to destroy a nation for the sake of lies like weapons of mass destruction (there weren't any), ties to El Quada (there weren't any), or the absurd hope that the people of Iraq would be so happy to be rid of their home-grown dictator that they would prefer to be ruled over by a foreign army. What country would ever willingly make that choice?

Well, anyway, the Iraqis lost. The cynic in me says, this is what happens to the losing side in any war.

Mathman

Is there a winning side in this war? (JMO)

Mathman is correct and there are no winners. It only makes other nations hate us more than they already do. I only hope that this administration fails miserably in the election. I am just so disgusted about this. The devil is sure working overtime any more.

Not going to get into the whole "is there a winner in war" issue, being a veteran....But I will say that we received a great deal of information on the Geneva convention all the way back in basic training (Which includes the proper treatment, what is acceptable and what isn't, in dealing with POWs). I'm sure no one is ever fully prepared for a wartime situation (I know I wasn't when sent over there), but there IS a basic understanding put into us from the beginning (at least in the Air Force, but I am sure the Army is similar).

Kasey

those photos show that some people just don't get it no matter how many times they may hear it.

the whole spectrum

I found it too upsetting to watch. This is the history of man. Fight, conquer, take, use, manipulate, destroy, humiliate, plunder, rape, feel all powerful like God. Brutality in all it's forms has a bottom line of no conscience in a man, a sense of invulnerability to being caught or punished for ones' heinous acts. These people in every army are taught to be savage, to have to kill. It dehumanizes and debases the psyche, and after that anything is possible. After you've killed other men, or women or children, the animal is left in you. You have a lifetime of healing, forgiveness and pain to work on.

In WW2, which my father was in, many wanted to go, not to hurt civilians, but to recompense for what was done to Pearl Harbor for ex. in Hawaii. Most men don't go to war thinking about what they'll see. These men who are being courtmartialed are below animals to use their power to debase those in their care.

We see that every day here, amongst the sick, elderly, esp. disabled, mentally ill, women, children. The devaluation of life, when it began in recent times from the beginning of life to the end is fraught today with every type of victimization as morals, the golden rule, the 10 commandments fall away with victimization rampant throughout this country (and most of world).

I am glad the major news outlets and the few news shows left on TV are telling the truth in these days where men will do anything. We are so desensitized as a society at this point to all the suffering going on in the next house, or a war torn country made so vulnerable by Saddam, an animal.

Many fine veterans who follow the rules have come home from our foriegn wars, and are good fathers, husbands, sons. But war takes a huge toll. I don't think I've sever seen or listened to a vet who didn't stuggle with PTSD or the memories to some extent for life. Some dehumanized people (look at some police- I should know) are looking for a chance to release their violence. Those of us that still care should always speaks out to congressman, senators, our local politicians. I HOPE THAT SHOW generated a huge call in response. For younger readers here, our teens/20's, I hope it resonates as something they care about, and please vote in this elections state and federal for people who reflect your views. It's all out here on the INT. If you vote in polls, or AI for fun, civic duty will make you feel so much better about yourself anyday. That goes for all of us in this nation. AS MUCH as we love FS here, this thread puts all that in it's place, huh?

Re: the whole spectrum

Bijoux said:

Many fine veterans who follow the rules have come home from our foriegn wars, and are good fathers, husbands, sons. But war takes a huge toll. I don't think I've sever seen or listened to a vet who didn't stuggle with PTSD or the memories to some extent for life

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Just a comment...many fine veterans nowadays come home and are good MOTHERS, WIVES, DAUGHTERS. It ain't just the boys anymore.....

Kasey

Invading armies always rape, torture, maim, etc.

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A few select individuals committed this crime, not the entire Army. These few individuals do not in any way shape or form represent the military.

It is especially better not to send an invading army to destroy a nation for the sake of lies like weapons of mass destruction (there weren't any),

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He used them Mathman. Tell that to the Kurds, tell them it was all a bad dream. Tell the thousands of Kurds that they're not really dead, that he never did have any WMD's, so they can't possibly be dead by poisonous gases. Do you honestly believe that he got rid of all of them?

ties to El Quada (there weren't any),

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He not only funded training cells, he encouraged suicide attacks, offering big bucks to family members.

or the absurd hope that the people of Iraq would be so happy to be rid of their home-grown dictator that they would prefer to be ruled over by a foreign army. What country would ever willingly make that choice?

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You really believe that what the news show you is all there is? Do you really believe that the Iraqi's don't miss the constant terror they lived with under his regime? Are you saying they enjoyed being raped and murdered? They enjoyed starving? They enjoyed a total lack of medical care? The woman enjoyed not being allowed to work? It must be nice to watch your very very filthy rich dictator abuse your family member if you didn't cooperate. Their own Olympic team was too afraid to NOT compete! Is this what you think they would willingly keep, rather than the chance for freedom and democracy?


Was there simliar outrage when he gased the Kurds?
Was there simliar outrage when he paraded US hostages on TV to "show how well they were treated, including the children?
Was there simliar outrage when 17 times he thumbed his nose at UN resolutions?
Was there simliar outrage when the children of Iraq were starving while he ate multi-course meals?

Why is it that nobody cares about them? Why is it that the one complaint I hear and read about the most is he wasn't a threat to us (The US)? Why is that so important? If someone is being mugged, should I just stand there and watch? After all, I'm not being mugged. For over 2 decades nobody had the guts to say enough is enough, not until President Bush came along. And even then, even after the last resolution, people still say he did this illegaly. People actually believe that Hussein wasn't that bad a guy.



After Sept 11, President Bush declared war on terror. Hussein most definitely should be at the top of that list. What a world this would be if all peace loving nations joined that war on terror. No, it'll never be totally wiped out, but am I the only one wishing terrorists never had anywhere to run?

...some people just don't get it no matter how many times they may hear it.

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well, you got that right, I just don't get it.

To borrow your metaphor, Pati, there are people "being mugged" in Rwanda, North Korea, China, etc. etc. (On a different but equally important level you are standing by and watching people "being mugged" in our own country with lack of access to health care, loss of jobs, housing, lack of decent education.)

This was an invasion of choice predicated on flawed intelligence, lies, impatience with a world-sanctioned inspection process, arrogance, and most importantly - to protect oil interests and provide marvelous opportunites for Bush-Cheney re-election cronies Haliburton and Kellog, Brown & Root to "rebuild". We have in the process in my opinion created the perfect 'greenhouse effect' for the proliferation of a whole new generation of hatred and terrorism by our actions. We have mortgaged our children and grandchildren's futures in the process. We've also squandered the goodwill directed to the US from around the world after 9-11 that could have been a catalyst for good.

We shouldn't be there. Sadly misguided, insular macho 'cowboy' attitudes prevail at the top level in this country, and they don't speak for me.

I would like to remind everyone that while it is fine to express your views, don't attack other forum members because of theirs.

While I'm not pointing out anyone, it's important that everyone understands that this is a sensitive issue for many people for many reasons, therefore think before you post. Thanks!

Just wanted to add one thing.....Saddam never prevented women from working. Women held very high ranking positions while he was in charge, as well as many "ordinary" jobs. They are quite fearful that if a "religious" government is set up, they will not be allowed to work.

Perhaps, Pati, you were thinking of Afganistan.

No one in their right mind thinks Saddam is a good guy. But there are many bad leaders in the world, and we aren't running out and invading those countries, and we shouldn't, for the most part.

Laura

This didn't surprise me at all. In every large group of people, there will be some jerks. The US Armed Forces are not immune to this problem. Add all the streses of war, and you have a recipe for disaster. The actions of these few were horrible, and inexcusable, but not surprising. I am glad that someone had the guts to report it.

Pati, you make a lot of good points. Still, in my opinion we rushed into war without mature reflection or sober deliberation. I do not expect that history will judge us kindly.

Outrage at the "handling of Iraqi prisoners"

It is an outrage,to be sure.Luckily for those prisoners,the images were broadcast over American(among others) television,where people from all political parties(including the President) expressed their outrage,and hopefully this will be follwed up by an investigation,where the offending soldiers will be punished.

That's the difference between such horrors happenning in the Iraq war,and what happenned in Afghanistan back in the '80s.

I originally did not mean for this thread to get into the "should we have gone to Iraq" issue. However, there are some things I would like to respond to.

Do you really believe that the Iraqi's don't miss the constant terror they lived with under his regime?

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What the do miss is having jobs, having salaries to take hom to their children, not being afraid that their children will be killed by a gang on their way to school. I am not sure how much it is the U.S. fault that the situation there is so dire. I tend to believe that a lot more planning should have been done. After all, the military campaign to overthrow Saddam was planned brilliantly. It upsets me that the same care was not taken to plan for the afterwards.

Why is it that the one complaint I hear and read about the most is he wasn't a threat to us (The US)

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1. 700 U.S. men and women died in Iraq, 500 of them in combat. That's an awful price to pay if it is not to protect your country. Right now, the U.S. military is stretched too thin. The tours of duty are extended, placing an extreme burden on the families. Senator Hagel is talking about re-instating the draft, claiming that the army just cannot go on the way it is today. IMHO, there is another way -- limit the US military engagement. Also, let's face it -- politics makes strange bed fellows. When US needed to get the UN security counsil resolution of invasion on Iraq, it courted all security counsil members, including Cameroon, which is one of the most brutal regimes on the planet today. So let's not pretend this is for some kind of higher ideals.

2. There are two very seperate questions in regards to the Iraqi invasion. One is "should we have attacked?" While my answer is "no", I fully accept that there may be other political considerations that I just do not understand. However, there is also a question of "should the US governement have been honest with its citizens about the reasons for this war?" My answer in unaquivoval "Yes!". Bush did not tell us "We should attack to liberate the Iraqi people" -- that did not come out until later, around spring. The main message was "We have to get rid of Saddam because he is a threat to us". I expect my government to be more forthright.