Kwan vs. Wagner: Which is the better Spartacus? | Golden Skate

Kwan vs. Wagner: Which is the better Spartacus?

daphna

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Since both use/ed the exact same cut, it's impossible not to compare them. So which one is the better one? obviously, the requirements are so different now, but I find both programms brilliant. Kwan just has the edge for me, Spartacus was one of her signatures and so emotional, even though it was her last competitive SP, and maybe because of it.
what do you guys think?
 

daphna

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Oh, APM.. what a talent, but what a headcase. what was the story, if we're at that? I nerver truly understood. anyone knows what happned to her post 2004?
 

TwinnerA

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Country
United-States
Michelle over Ashley, for me at least. My favorite part of MK's was the circular footwork!
 

iceberg

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 30, 2014
Interesting because the very first thread I created was also comparing 2 skaters and unfortunately was deleted. I wonder how this thread goes.
 

IcyEdges

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Oh, APM.. what a talent, but what a headcase. what was the story, if we're at that? I nerver truly understood. anyone knows what happned to her post 2004?

I loved the skating of APM as well. She went on to skate in Radio City Christmas Spectacular with Jonathon Hunt, as well as coaching in Westchester NY and working on her Bio degree.

Last known she was skating on Royal Caribbean Cruise ships circa 2012.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Interesting because the very first thread I created was also comparing 2 skaters and unfortunately was deleted. I wonder how this thread goes.

It's all in the wording. :) What makes this a good thread is the part about "both programs were brilliant." It does not invite posters to use one skater's brilliance to criticize another.

That said… ;) The three programs, Ann Patrice's in 2003, then Michelle's in 2005, then Ashley's in 2008-09 show the difference between 6.0 program, a 6.0 skater trying to make the transition to CoP, and the CoP version. "You pay your money and you take your choice."
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I loved the skating of APM as well. She went on to skate in Radio City Christmas Spectacular with Jonathon Hunt, as well as coaching in Westchester NY and working on her Bio degree.

Last known she was skating on Royal Caribbean Cruise ships circa 2012.

I have often wondered if the USFSA could have done more to provide psychological nurturing and support for Ann Patrice. She seemed destined for big things when she came in second at 2002 Skate America (and was, along with Jenny Kirk the toast of the town in the Spokane media). Her next Grand Prix event was Cup of Russia, but when she and her mother, inexperienced travelers, arrived in Paris (I think?) they were not allowed to board the plane for Moscow because their visas were not in order. The USFSA could have been more active in providing advice and counsel.

By the next year AP seemed visibly to lose interest, started to rebel, and never really got her skating mojo back.

drivingmissdaisy said:

We will not pass this way again.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
By the next year AP seemed visibly to lose interest, started to rebel, and never really got her skating mojo back.

I think what did APM in was the year she nailed a 7 triple LP at Nationals, maybe 2003, with her only error being a singled 2A at the beginning and not coming close to being able to beat Sasha, who had a fall, 2 two-footed landing, and a wonky 2A.
 

anthologyz

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 28, 2012
michelle's inside-outside spiral was made for the spartacus crescendo. she hit it perfectly at nationals.
 

desertskates

Medalist
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Sorry for the :hijacked: Between the two offered up, I would choose Michelle. But I love Ashley's. People say that the choreography is lacking, but I think it's elegance is in the simplicity and emotion.
 

samson

Medalist
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Of all the Spartacus discussed I gotta go with Michelle. From the opening note she embodied that music, coupled with one of my favorite uses of her spiral and the stunning circular footwork used at nationals it takes the cake for me.

I think Ashley's has a lot of potential - I have to admit I think she'd benefit from a different cut or something... it's a strong program and I love her dress to go with it too, it's missing the extra something for me but hopefully with a few more performances of it under her belt she'll find that sweet spot.
 

edenlover

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 10, 2014
I've seen so many Spartacus programs. I love the music and the story, and to me, the only one who portrayed the music and the story with the passion shown by the character in the original music was MICHELLE> I am never bored when I watch it; her program flies by. Her emotion, her response to the music is beyond compare.
She moved ME when I first saw her skate to it. Every high is accentuated; every beat is met. She is one with the music. I think it was one of her most dramatic
programs. I love it, I love it. ANd I'm not taking away what others did...to me she's SIMPLY THE BEST when it comes to Spartacus.
 

emma

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
So, I'm not even sure why I'm tempting to comment, yet alone actaully doing it...but, just looking and Kwan and Wagner, I see great things in both of them and I think MM already alluded to the way the scoring systems might shape differences between them. That said, I have felt for quite awhile that Ashley shares many of the technical and artistic aspects/attributes of Kwan....I'm NOT saying she has the competitive verve, record or ability to put it together like Kwan. But, for me, she is THE US skater that most reminds me of Kwan's abilities, style, body language etc without being, somehow at the same time, at all like Kwan.

So to try to be clear, I think Kwan edges Wagner out in many categories, but Wagner reminds me of Kwan in ways the other skaters do not, and the latter statement is not a statement of skill, talent, creativity etc. For instance, I love Polina and deeply admire Gracie and root for Mirai and hope that Cesario rocks it and think that Gao is lovely and want Alissa back (ahhhhh) and want x, y , z to do well or impress us or just be happy. So, this isn't my way of saying I think Wagner = Kwan NOR is it my way of saying she if my favorite above many others. It's just my way of saying that in addition to music choice, I think Wagner has or has attempted to display qualities that remind me of Kwan. So, I'm thinking of things like her egdges or attempt to highlight them, her pacing, her 'squaring' of her body in certain spin and jump entries; some of the jumps themselves; the being fairly good at all of the the "things" we count, but not necessarily exceptional at any of them....something about presence and rythn too.
 
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